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What is "burst" tanking?
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JonnyRandom
#1 - 2011-12-02 04:34:11 UTC
I sometimes people here talk about how you only need to "burst" your tank whenever I talk without someone about tanks that are not sustainable. What do they mean by that?
Handsome Hussein
#2 - 2011-12-02 04:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Handsome Hussein
I would assume "pulsing" the tank: turning it on for a cycle or two and then letting the cap recharge (because it's not stable).

EDIT: Should refine the answer: Pulsing the repper. Your hardeners/DCU stay on all the time. In a tank that you have to pulse, you would at least make sure the hardeners work stable.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-12-02 04:35:57 UTC
Pulsing your tanking mod to replenish your shields or armor to near full, then turning it off to allow your capacitor to regenerate.
JonnyRandom
#4 - 2011-12-02 04:47:17 UTC
In that case, which line of deadspace shield boosters would be more preferable for lvl4s? The Gist type which are more energy efficient but boost less, or the Pith type that are less energy efficient but boost much more? I'm trying to fit a Nightmare.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#5 - 2011-12-02 05:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aessaya
Actually, there are a couple of terms related to active tanking (armor and shield alike): Capstable, Burst, Sustained.

Now, capstable should speak for itself - it's the kind that can run indefinitely without draining the capacitor out to zero.

Burst and sustained relate to the same non-capstable tank, but they describe the tanked dps numbers when using the tank in different situations.
Burst defines the maximum possible dps your tank can hold under continous operation of repair/boost modules (until your cap runs out).
Sustained tank defines the dps amout you can mitigate by pulsing your repair modules on and off in such way that they won't completely drain your capacitor but provide maximum repairs efficiency.

Now, fitting for burst tanking mean that you neglect capacitor stability in favor of larger tank bursts for limited period of time, which is what you'd need for pvp situations, because combat rarely extends beyond a couple of minutes - either you die, your enemy dies or someone gets away. Cap boosters can greatly prolong burst tanking.

Capstable tanks usually seen in where ship has to tank incoming damage for longer periods, like missions and/or anomalies, although burst tanks with higher sustainability are not uncommong for missions (i, for one, operate one for most L4s).

Now, i can explain in more detail, but i'd need a context you want to use tank in :)

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
JonnyRandom
#6 - 2011-12-02 05:12:22 UTC
Aessaya wrote:

Now, i can explain in more detail, but i'd need a context you want to use tank in :)


I'm trying to fit a Nightmare with Tachs. The problem is that it's already got problems with cap before any introduction of tank because of the guns. So I'm not sure if it's better to save up for a Gist-type or get the cheaper Pith-type booster for it. Fit so far for it, minus the booster:

[Nightmare]
Tracking Enhancer II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II

Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Pith or Gist X-Large Shield Booster

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Goose99
#7 - 2011-12-02 05:17:30 UTC
JonnyRandom wrote:
Aessaya wrote:

Now, i can explain in more detail, but i'd need a context you want to use tank in :)


I'm trying to fit a Nightmare with Tachs. The problem is that it's already got problems with cap before any introduction of tank because of the guns. So I'm not sure if it's better to save up for a Gist-type or get the cheaper Pith-type booster for it. Fit so far for it, minus the booster:

[Nightmare]
Tracking Enhancer II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II

Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Pith or Gist X-Large Shield Booster

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


Swap lsm for cccs. Use specific hardners. Swap Tach IIs for faction Tachs for less cap usage at the expense of around 20 dps. 2x 5% cap implants.
JonnyRandom
#8 - 2011-12-02 05:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: JonnyRandom
Goose99 wrote:


Swap lsm for cccs. Use specific hardners. Swap Tach IIs for faction Tachs for less cap usage at the expense of around 20 dps. 2x 5% cap implants.


The LSMs give me more cap stability than the CCCs, actually. And 2x CN Invuln fields also actually give more tank than rat specific hardeners.

Faction Tachs, though, I haven't thought about that at all. That pretty much eliminates my problem with guns draining my cap in under 10mins. Thanks for that suggestion!

edit: I don't suppose there's much use for T2 Beam crystals, is there? Gleam seems worse than MF, but I've never used it. What about Aurora? Is it better than Radio?
Roderick Tazinas
24IC 1st Surplus Distribution Company
#9 - 2011-12-02 06:23:54 UTC
For the love of God, fit a damage control II! The hull itself is almost a billion. A 4th heat sink is negligible because of stacking penalties. If you have the money for Caldari Navy invuls, you definitely should change the shield boost amplifier to faction/deadspace too. And Navy Cap Booster 800s are dirt cheap too.
Aamrr
#10 - 2011-12-02 07:09:58 UTC
lol at a damage control for PvE.
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#11 - 2011-12-02 07:20:32 UTC
JonnyRandom wrote:
Faction Tachs, though, I haven't thought about that at all. That pretty much eliminates my problem with guns draining my cap in under 10mins. Thanks for that suggestion!


OK, you talk about "under 10 minutes". If it is just short of 10 mins, I would not bother, because you will switch off you weapons sometimes. Your targets should pop sometimes with that damage you are pushing around, I'd guess. If you then let the booster slip a cycle from time to time you should be pretty much able to keep that up indefinetly.

But ymmv.

Rhi
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#12 - 2011-12-02 08:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aessaya
Now, this is what i'm running for level 4s, but then my aggro management skills are top notch. You can always opt for more invuls and a cap booster. With cap booster i'd definitely go for pith xl boosters for higher burst tank, but then again, gist ones are more cap-efficient in the end. If you go gist, you can try to capstabilize the fit (i haven't really tried doing it though).
Plus, i mostly rely on guns for damage, with drones to pick off those suckers that get lucky enough to avoid my guns and gent into close range (usually very few do). Also carry nanite paste and overheat at will.
Quick note: i'm strictly against cap boosters on pve ships, but this only applies to my setups. Thus this is not an optimal fit for a nightmare.
Quote:
[Nightmare, Her Worst Nightmare]
Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Cap Recharger II
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Gist C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5


Aamrr wrote:
lol at a damage control for PvE.

Don't laugh, they are quite useful, especially on armor tanks. I also keep them around on my shield support domi for more oomph on passive tank. Simply because DC's resistance bonuses are not subject to stacking penalties. Although at most times you can find more useful things to fit. Like tracking enhancer =]

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#13 - 2011-12-02 08:18:33 UTC
Your nightmare fit aint bad, and the cap time you post is more than enough. I run dread guristas xl booster with rat specific hardeners and it has worked well so far. The higher dps tank number you see on eft is probably vs. omni damage. Setup rat specific damage profiles and play around with different hardener combinations and you'd find that rat specific tanking is better.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-12-02 12:09:09 UTC
[Nightmare, Cannibal Lecter]
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist X-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Gist X-Type Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor II
Heavy Nosferatu II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

?

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-12-02 16:24:02 UTC
Aessaya wrote:

Don't laugh, they are quite useful, especially on armor tanks. I also keep them around on my shield support domi for more oomph on passive tank. Simply because DC's resistance bonuses are not subject to stacking penalties. Although at most times you can find more useful things to fit. Like tracking enhancer =]


Also, DCUs go a long way towards making you an unattractive suicide gank target. It cheaply and easily adds over 30% more general purpose HP to a nightmare. It may not effect your mission speed much, but if it saves your ship (and juicey deadspace mods) from nasty people with artillery who want to hurt it.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#16 - 2011-12-02 16:50:01 UTC
JonnyRandom wrote:
The LSMs give me more cap stability than the CCCs, actually. And 2x CN Invuln fields also actually give more tank than rat specific hardeners.


LSMs typically do give longer cap life, but they do it at the expense of sustained tank. This is because they increase your total capacitor, which means that it takes longer to burn through your cap before you go dry. But CCCs increase your regen, which means that once you are low on cap, it will come back faster. When you're pulsing your shield booster, it's better to have more regen and sustained tank than more cap buffer.

Here's a bit of an example (with completely made up numbers) to show the difference.

Say you are in the mission and you pulse the shield booster and it takes you down to 75% with the LSM or 70% with the CCC. Then you let your cap regen for a bit and your LSM regens about 10% cap but the CCC regens 20% before you need to pulse your booster again. You end up with 85% cap on the LSM fit and 90% on the CCC fit. Repeat this 20 times and you'll see why the CCC fit is better for pretty much all mission scenarios.

While the LSM is better if you will never get a chance to stop and let the cap regen, the CCC is better for pulsing the shield booster with cap regen in between pulses, which is what happens in missions. (Yes, these numbers are completely made up, but hopefully it's a decent example of the difference between how LSM and CCC work)

Also, if a pair of Invuls are giving you better tank than faction specific hardeners, you're either: a. Not factoring in the rat damage profiles, b. Comparing T2 Hardeners with CN Invuls (look at DED ones instead, they're cheap and better resists), or c. Using the Angel damage profile (and you shouldn't be using a NM against Angels anyways).
Grozdan Boyadijev
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-12-02 17:49:07 UTC
mxzf wrote:
JonnyRandom wrote:
The LSMs give me more cap stability than the CCCs, actually. And 2x CN Invuln fields also actually give more tank than rat specific hardeners.


LSMs typically do give longer cap life, but they do it at the expense of sustained tank. This is because they increase your total capacitor, which means that it takes longer to burn through your cap before you go dry. But CCCs increase your regen, which means that once you are low on cap, it will come back faster. When you're pulsing your shield booster, it's better to have more regen and sustained tank than more cap buffer.

Here's a bit of an example (with completely made up numbers) to show the difference.

Say you are in the mission and you pulse the shield booster and it takes you down to 75% with the LSM or 70% with the CCC. Then you let your cap regen for a bit and your LSM regens about 10% cap but the CCC regens 20% before you need to pulse your booster again. You end up with 85% cap on the LSM fit and 90% on the CCC fit. Repeat this 20 times and you'll see why the CCC fit is better for pretty much all mission scenarios.

While the LSM is better if you will never get a chance to stop and let the cap regen, the CCC is better for pulsing the shield booster with cap regen in between pulses, which is what happens in missions. (Yes, these numbers are completely made up, but hopefully it's a decent example of the difference between how LSM and CCC work)

Also, if a pair of Invuls are giving you better tank than faction specific hardeners, you're either: a. Not factoring in the rat damage profiles, b. Comparing T2 Hardeners with CN Invuls (look at DED ones instead, they're cheap and better resists), or c. Using the Angel damage profile (and you shouldn't be using a NM against Angels anyways).


Increasing capacitor capacity increases your capacitor recharge rate, you know. This is because capacitor recharge is purely percentage based (you recharge X% of the cap capacity per second). In some cases, an LSM is going to give you more cap recharge than another CCC because of stacking penalties and all.

I will second that if two CN Invunls are giving you a better tank than, say, a specific for your rats' primary damage type and an invuln, you're doing something funky.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#18 - 2011-12-02 17:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aessaya
Two t2 Invuls will yeld you 51% across the board, two rat-specific t2 hardeners will give you 55% for each of the two resists. Thus unless you are fighting angels, rat specific hardeners are the better way (this is also true for higher metalevel ones). They also use less cap and are much cheaper :)

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2011-12-02 18:14:54 UTC
Want a dirt cheap (for a Nightmare) cap stable build that uses T2 guns? Well, it can technically be done:

[Nightmare, Tachs pve stable]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cap Recharger II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Auto Targeting System II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

It's not the best fit out there. Not by a long shot. But if cap stability happens to be one of your goals (and there are some good reasons for this), I don't think you can do much better than this.

Having said that, a burst tank is going to be plenty for almost any PvE circumstance you drop into short of your ancient laptop half-dropping a wireless connection at a coffee shop.
Goose99
#20 - 2011-12-02 18:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Grozdan Boyadijev wrote:
mxzf wrote:
JonnyRandom wrote:
The LSMs give me more cap stability than the CCCs, actually. And 2x CN Invuln fields also actually give more tank than rat specific hardeners.


LSMs typically do give longer cap life, but they do it at the expense of sustained tank. This is because they increase your total capacitor, which means that it takes longer to burn through your cap before you go dry. But CCCs increase your regen, which means that once you are low on cap, it will come back faster. When you're pulsing your shield booster, it's better to have more regen and sustained tank than more cap buffer.

Here's a bit of an example (with completely made up numbers) to show the difference.

Say you are in the mission and you pulse the shield booster and it takes you down to 75% with the LSM or 70% with the CCC. Then you let your cap regen for a bit and your LSM regens about 10% cap but the CCC regens 20% before you need to pulse your booster again. You end up with 85% cap on the LSM fit and 90% on the CCC fit. Repeat this 20 times and you'll see why the CCC fit is better for pretty much all mission scenarios.

While the LSM is better if you will never get a chance to stop and let the cap regen, the CCC is better for pulsing the shield booster with cap regen in between pulses, which is what happens in missions. (Yes, these numbers are completely made up, but hopefully it's a decent example of the difference between how LSM and CCC work)

Also, if a pair of Invuls are giving you better tank than faction specific hardeners, you're either: a. Not factoring in the rat damage profiles, b. Comparing T2 Hardeners with CN Invuls (look at DED ones instead, they're cheap and better resists), or c. Using the Angel damage profile (and you shouldn't be using a NM against Angels anyways).


Increasing capacitor capacity increases your capacitor recharge rate, you know. This is because capacitor recharge is purely percentage based (you recharge X% of the cap capacity per second). In some cases, an LSM is going to give you more cap recharge than another CCC because of stacking penalties and all.

I will second that if two CN Invunls are giving you a better tank than, say, a specific for your rats' primary damage type and an invuln, you're doing something funky.


CCCs have no stacking penalties. Or any cap mods. LSM does increase cap regen, but at a rate far lower than CCC. On EFT, for an unstable fit, it will display your cap lasting longer with LSM, because cap pool is bigger. You don't see that cap is worse overall unless cap is already stable, and EFT displays percentage at which it is stable, in which CCC will give a higher percentage than LSM.

2 CN invulnerabilities will give better resists for Angels, as dmg profile is mostly exp but with significant portions of kinetic/heat/em mixed in. For races with more pure dmg profile, such as Guristas (80 kin, 20 thermal, on paper, with almost all dmg as kin and none thermal in practice, as thermal is only as a portion of railguns, kin is from missiles), you'll be better off with a invulnerability and a kin hardner, or even 2 kin. Also, 2x CN invulnerability adds 1.5 bil to your gankability.

Btw, don't use those cap mod/cpr fits, especially cpr. They fail.P
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