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[Summer 2014] Links Still Dreadful

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Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#41 - 2014-04-24 23:28:40 UTC
Viribus wrote:
I have a dedicated link alt and I'd biomass him in a heartbeat if it meant no more goddamn fleet bonuses.



Show me where, on the doll, the bad links boats touched you.



Quote: Isn't numbers enough of an advantage?

^ is why removing links is bad....


quote: Less alting; nobody trains this stuff on their main.

Lol. Okay, if you would like to believe that.


Quote: More newbie friendly

And what does BNI Think of this?


Quote: Less tackle range = more brawling. Thank God for Dead Nomens

'Cept for long webs are a good counter to Nomens.....


Quote: Passive gameplay sucks. "Hey I'm just gonna sit here in my 300k EHP ship and double the tank of my entire fleet" GREAT GAME DESIGN CCP

If that's all your doing with that ship than you're missing out on a lot of potential.... which is a result of low player ability, not of bad game design


Quote: No more of these threads

Just more 'Nerf ganking,' 'Buff my freighter,' and 'Nerf ECM!' threads, right?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#42 - 2014-04-24 23:37:47 UTC
Alyssa Haginen wrote:
If CCP wants balanced links they should follow these steps.

Stop links from being active inside pos fields.

Operate links like a deployed module with a 60 sec cycle(Just like bastion without the velocity penalty). People running links would not be able to warp away and would have a 60 second aggression timer to prevent station camping.

Make sure T3's can be combat scanned.

This is all it would take to fix the main problems of links. All the rest are just fleets that got welped to a linked fleet that complained about a loss.



These suppositions are wrong. Combat links already do not work in POS shields, only mining links. A 'deployed module' is completely useless for a command ship. They should suffer no such thing. A 60 seconds suspect timer also does not work in high sec, where a corp of mission runners may have a vulture providing links. Just because he's helping his friends out in a PVE method not harming anyone else in any way does not mean he should be shootable. now, if his fleet aggresses, then like logi, yes, a timer would be acceptable.

T3's can already be combat scanned.... some of them are just really hard to scan.


The biggest issue with links is the 1-2 frigates warping around with a cloaky T3. I'm all for OnGB links, or at least nerfed OfGB links. I'm kinda pretty heavily skilled into links, command ships, and the like, on a main(Gee didn't someone just say no one does that?). OnGB links are just fine with me, or 'full OnGB links and reduced OfGB links.' It's not the fleet fights that links are the problem with(cept the butthurt guy who got pointed 40k out, to which I say HTFU.) The legitimate problem with links are the harpies and hawks and dramiels whipping around with a cloaky Tengu. But that doesn't require a 'She's a Witch, Burn Her!' for all links. Mostly it's just people needing to learn who and what goes on around them. 'So and so enters local..... So and so always has So and Sue as their links-gu.... oh hey, So and Sue is in local... Imma dock up for 5 minutes so So and So and his alt So and Sue go away......'

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#43 - 2014-04-24 23:40:37 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Phaade wrote:
...


Daichi Yamato wrote:
...


Hi, you must be new here. My name is Carmen, and I'm here to teach you the basics of EVE online.

As in real life, there are very few fair fights. If you want fair fights, just about any game besides EVE will do. People are really excited about Star Citizen, maybe you should check it out? With any luck, it won't have warfare links.

You are right, links are game-breaking. As in, the team with links will break you if you don't have links. Get your own links.

The problem is that this is true of many other eve mechanics. A team with ECM beats a team without ECM. A team with logi beats a team without logi. The outcome of most fights are determined before any ships land on grid. This is the great secret of EVE that no one seems to get. It's 90% planning, 10% execution. If you want a game where it's all about execution, go play BF or CoD as I suggested earlier. EVE is a cerebral game where planning and scheming pays off far more than what you do in the heat of the battle. It's been like this since 2003.



A team with ECM actually has to man the **** up and put a ship on grid. A team with Logi likewise mans the **** up and puts a ship on grid. Both of those ships are at risk due to being engaged in the fight. You also know for fact that this ship is there because it's on grid.

A team with links has no risk on grid, no additional ships engaged and inherently at risk, and there's no indication of it short of your enemy being faster/pointing you at ridiculous ranges.

I'd be down with links being off grid if they made a beacon so you could warp to them when active. I'd be down with them being on grid only. I'm not cool with them being "are they there or not?". So you pansy asses can man the **** up and put a goddamn ship on grid. I ******* trained up two boosters of my own, but they're actually capable of sitting in tanked command ships and I'll be more than willing to bring them on grid when the time is right.
scimichar
Deep Hole Explorers of New Eden
#44 - 2014-04-24 23:40:37 UTC
"[Summer 2014] Links Still Dreadful"

I agree. I want my 100km point back.
HillBillyBushwacker HillFolk
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#45 - 2014-04-24 23:59:26 UTC
Just going to throw it out there so everyone quits looking to smart
YOU CAN NOT RUN LINKS UNDER A POS SHIELD.

You guys had me thinking I was wrong... so I warped to the pos... nope cant activate.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-04-25 02:41:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At least one sitting CSM member has expressed that the only reason off grid boosting is allowed to exist at all is because they can't figure out how to code it to not screw up several other things alongside it.

Same thing as the POS problem, basically.

OGB is slated for death as soon as CCP can figure out how to do it without killing us all. It will happen, patience is all that's required.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-04-25 02:50:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sepheir Sepheron wrote:

Some people don't have money or time for two accounts.

So bring an actual friend? They are allowed. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you have no friends.

If you want to solo sometimes but not not "true solo" then good luck with that. Even if it's someone you know IRL, asking them to train and fly a link ship so they can literally be your ***** is a tough sell to say the least.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Alyssa Haginen
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-04-25 03:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyssa Haginen
Kenrailae wrote:


These suppositions are wrong. Combat links already do not work in POS shields, only mining links. A 'deployed module' is completely useless for a command ship. They should suffer no such thing. A 60 seconds suspect timer also does not work in high sec, where a corp of mission runners may have a vulture providing links. Just because he's helping his friends out in a PVE method not harming anyone else in any way does not mean he should be shootable. now, if his fleet aggresses, then like logi, yes, a timer would be acceptable.

T3's can already be combat scanned.... some of them are just really hard to scan.


Mining links should be like combat links

By 'deployed module' I mean two things only. You are not able to warp or cloak while your links are active and you get a 60 second timer.

T3's or Command Ships running with deployed links should be scanned by a covert ops and tackled by an inty within the 60 second cycle if you put skilled player in the pilots chairs. (about equal to 100% at 1au scan range)

I had posted about a UI system to allow fleet commanders to control fleets in a deployed fleet command ship by using field command ships as uplink ships. As long as there was a field command ship uplinking the grid data the FC could load grid like he was there(By this I mean he could load the overview from the field command ship) This would no doubt lead to longer fights in most all cases. Dont fleet commanders in real life command from a more remote location then right in the middle of the fight? Im all for off grid commanding and boosting but I agree there should be a better countering system. This UI would be something allowing skilled scanners and small ship pilots to disrupt a large battle and counter off grid boosting.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2014-04-25 09:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Carmen Electra wrote:
Phaade wrote:
...


Daichi Yamato wrote:
...


Hi, you must be new here. My name is Carmen, and I'm here to teach you the basics of EVE online.

As in real life, there are very few fair fights. If you want fair fights, just about any game besides EVE will do. People are really excited about Star Citizen, maybe you should check it out? With any luck, it won't have warfare links.

You are right, links are game-breaking. As in, the team with links will break you if you don't have links. Get your own links.

The problem is that this is true of many other eve mechanics. A team with ECM beats a team without ECM. A team with logi beats a team without logi. The outcome of most fights are determined before any ships land on grid. This is the great secret of EVE that no one seems to get. It's 90% planning, 10% execution. If you want a game where it's all about execution, go play BF or CoD as I suggested earlier. EVE is a cerebral game where planning and scheming pays off far more than what you do in the heat of the battle. It's been like this since 2003.




Hi there. u mustn't be able to read...dnt worry. im here to help, and ill point out ur failures to u so u can try again.

'i have trained an alt. JUST FOR BOOSTING. woo!'

A team with ECM and logi has to be on the field to work. An alt tabbed links booster is 100% effective. Alt tabbing between logi/ECM and ur combat char is much more difficult. There is also no leveling of the playing field with links. Large groups can bring command alts just as much as solo players and small gangs.

Links mechanics are completely different to logi and ecm. Now that u have learned that, would u like to try again?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#50 - 2014-04-25 12:15:56 UTC
Phaade wrote:
You forget to use your brain?


/irony

Dead Game.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#51 - 2014-04-25 14:46:19 UTC
...this Topic... again...

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Vadeim Rizen
TYR.
Exodus.
#52 - 2014-04-25 15:37:04 UTC
More rage about links, huh? Train your own links or quit complaining.

Every person in eve has the equal ability to train a link alt. I've spent time and isk on 2 different alts training for leadership skills, and at any given time between my pvp ship and pod, and one of my link pod and ship, will have bare minimum 2 bill invested into a fight. I very rarely use both link alts at the sime time.

The fact that you are too lazy to train your own link alt or fly with someone who has a link alt does not mean links should be 'fixed.' They've already been nerfed enough.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#53 - 2014-04-25 15:43:57 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:

Hi, you must be new here. My name is Carmen, and I'm here to teach you the basics of EVE online.

As in real life, there are very few fair fights. If you want fair fights, just about any game besides EVE will do. People are really excited about Star Citizen, maybe you should check it out? With any luck, it won't have warfare links.

You are right, links are game-breaking. As in, the team with links will break you if you don't have links. Get your own links.

The problem is that this is true of many other eve mechanics. A team with ECM beats a team without ECM. A team with logi beats a team without logi. The outcome of most fights are determined before any ships land on grid. This is the great secret of EVE that no one seems to get. It's 90% planning, 10% execution. If you want a game where it's all about execution, go play BF or CoD as I suggested earlier. EVE is a cerebral game where planning and scheming pays off far more than what you do in the heat of the battle. It's been like this since 2003.




You obviously have a lot to learn:

ECM is not game breaking. There are many ways to deal with ECM when you do not: Damps to break ECM ship's range, DPS to destroy the fragile ECM ships, ECCM to make yourself very difficult to jam, etc.

What are the counter to links? Scan down and blap the link ship, which is NOT something you can typically do in the middle of a fight.

Logi is not game breaking. There are many ways to deal with logi when you do not: Alpha your targets, so logi cannot rep them. Neut out the logi so they can't apply reps. Jam and/or Damp logi to limit their ability to rep targets. And of course, destroy the logi ships.

What are the counters to links? Scan down and blap the link ship, which is NOT something you can typically do in the middle of a fight.

Links are game breaking, and off grid boosters are the epitome of terrible game mechanics.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-04-25 15:59:18 UTC
How about bonus from links is dependent on fleet size? diminishing returns after ten for every ten that joins?

or

Wing and Fleet Command positions require command ships to be used, squads gain bonuses from wing and fleet boosters but no links at squad level and below.

Or, squad com can have one link applied, if more then one link is activated (on the squad com) , it randomly selects which one is applied.

Or add a dessy level single link roam command ship that has a 1.5% bonus to the link which can be used at squad level

If you are gonna shake things up, shake them up.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Vadeim Rizen
TYR.
Exodus.
#55 - 2014-04-25 16:01:24 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

What are the counter to links? Scan down and blap the link ship, which is NOT something you can typically do in the middle of a fight.




Using your own links, or not taking a fight if you feel you cant win the fight.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#56 - 2014-04-25 16:37:26 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:

Using your own links, or not taking a fight if you feel you cant win the fight.


Bingo. Warfare Links are only detrimental to those who seek the fight first and victory afterwards.

Don't engage those who are more prepared than you. Doing so is the first mark of irresponsibility. The second is deferring the blame, claiming in a public space that it's anyone else's fault but yours.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#57 - 2014-04-25 16:45:51 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

What are the counter to links? Scan down and blap the link ship, which is NOT something you can typically do in the middle of a fight.




Using your own links, or not taking a fight if you feel you cant win the fight.


You make my point for me. They don't encourage any interesting game play. They are unbalanced, and the main counter to links is to bring your own links. If you truly think that balances them, you have a very twisted notion of balance.

To repeat myself:
Quote:
Each warfare link has a power level similar to an entire pirate implant set or standard combat booster.

Example:
Snake Implants 1-6 give a 24% boost to speed to ONE SHIP.
Rapid deployment gives a 30% boost to EVERY MEMBER OF THE FLEET.

Furthermore, with your pirate implant set, you are limited to one major set of boosts.
With links, you can have boosts akin to a Snake Set, a Crystal Set, a Halo set, and more, simultaneously, provided to every member of your fleet.


Frankly, links are way out of balance with the rest of EvE's mechanics. This is irrefutable to anyone that actually looks at the numbers. Paying for a second account does not justify an overpowered mechanic. Months of skill training does not justify an overpowered mechanic. Allowing everyone to bring their own links does not justify an overpowered mechanic. They don't encourage teamwork, they don't balance anything. We understand why people like them. People will decline a fight when there is a Falcon on grid, or a logistics ship on grid, but hide the link ship in some far off hard-to-access area, and people will underestimate your combat ability and give you a fight. That doesn't justify leaving links overpowered.

Links are broken in their current form. They need to:
♦ Be brought on grid,
♦ Be nerfed in Magnitude (5-10% boosts rather than 30-35% boosts), or
♦ Have direct counters: Link Disruptor Deployables.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-04-25 16:47:57 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Phaade wrote:
...


Daichi Yamato wrote:
...


Hi, you must be new here. My name is Carmen, and I'm here to teach you the basics of EVE online.

As in real life, there are very few fair fights. If you want fair fights, just about any game besides EVE will do. People are really excited about Star Citizen, maybe you should check it out? With any luck, it won't have warfare links.

You are right, links are game-breaking. As in, the team with links will break you if you don't have links. Get your own links.

The problem is that this is true of many other eve mechanics. A team with ECM beats a team without ECM. A team with logi beats a team without logi. The outcome of most fights are determined before any ships land on grid. This is the great secret of EVE that no one seems to get. It's 90% planning, 10% execution. If you want a game where it's all about execution, go play BF or CoD as I suggested earlier. EVE is a cerebral game where planning and scheming pays off far more than what you do in the heat of the battle. It's been like this since 2003.




Your logi has to be on grid to be effective, this mean he is vulnerable to attacks if the toher team choose to do so. Same for your ECM boat. Links are not OP, they should just not be off-grid. You want an advantage on the field, then bring it on the field. You should totally have an advantage if you get friends to help you with any type of support as long as that support is also in the fight like ECM and logis. Putting your Logi on the line gives you remote rep on the field, putting your E-war ship on the line gives you e-war on the field, getting link support should require your linking ship to be on the field.

The guy with more preparation will still have the advantage but the other side can work it's fight plan to adjust to it and try to counter it just like they can primary logi or e-war ships. It force a decision to be made.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#59 - 2014-04-25 16:53:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Your logi has to be on grid to be effective, this mean he is vulnerable to attacks if the toher team choose to do so. Same for your ECM boat. Links are not OP, they should just not be off-grid. You want an advantage on the field, then bring it on the field. You should totally have an advantage if you get friends to help you with any type of support as long as that support is also in the fight like ECM and logis. Putting your Logi on the line gives you remote rep on the field, putting your E-war ship on the line gives you e-war on the field, getting link support should require your linking ship to be on the field.

The guy with more preparation will still have the advantage but the other side can work it's fight plan to adjust to it and try to counter it just like they can primary logi or e-war ships. It force a decision to be made.


A very nice consequence of bringing links on grid is they have to also fit for a combat environment then. 6-Link t3's usually sacrifice too much fitting to be viable on grid, but a 1 or 2 link t3 can be combat viable while fielding links. This reduces the stacking of links, which will go quite far in bringing their current bonus levels inline.
Vadeim Rizen
TYR.
Exodus.
#60 - 2014-04-25 16:59:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Your logi has to be on grid to be effective, this mean he is vulnerable to attacks if the toher team choose to do so. Same for your ECM boat. Links are not OP, they should just not be off-grid. You want an advantage on the field, then bring it on the field. You should totally have an advantage if you get friends to help you with any type of support as long as that support is also in the fight like ECM and logis. Putting your Logi on the line gives you remote rep on the field, putting your E-war ship on the line gives you e-war on the field, getting link support should require your linking ship to be on the field.

The guy with more preparation will still have the advantage but the other side can work it's fight plan to adjust to it and try to counter it just like they can primary logi or e-war ships. It force a decision to be made.


A very nice consequence of bringing links on grid is they have to also fit for a combat environment then. 6-Link t3's usually sacrifice too much fitting to be viable on grid, but a 1 or 2 link t3 can be combat viable while fielding links. This reduces the stacking of links, which will go quite far in bringing their current bonus levels inline.



This just shows your ignorance on the issue. there is no such thing as a 6 link t3.