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Tracking enhancer nerf, broke medium autocannons
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#41 - 2014-04-24 14:09:47 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
* auto-cannons out-track pulses? When has this ever happened?

Um, all the time on every ship that fits them?

Keith Planck wrote:
* auto-cannons out-range blasters? Have you seen what Null does?

Yeah, ACs do outrange blasters, that's kind of the whole point of large falloff.

Keith Planck wrote:
Medium autocannons aren't the jack-of-all trades guns, they are just **** at everything.

I'm going to disagree here.

Tracking: Blasters > ACs > Pulses
Raw damage: Blasters > ACs > Pulses
Range: Pulses > ACs > Blasters

Looks pretty middle of the road to me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-04-24 14:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
The thing with short range guns is, in theory:

1. Blasters: shortest range, best tracking
2. Lasers: longest range, worst tracking
3. ACs: second longest range, second best tracking (generalist)

Then the Minmatar ships utilize their speed to dictate range and abuse the weapon types' disadvantages, for instance, getting close against lasers to get under tracking or staying out of blaster range.

The problem here is that if you make ACs too strong or Minmatar ships too fast, they begin to dominate their adversaries without the adversaries' ability to fight back - i.e., we're back to the Age of Winmatar. If on the other hand we make ACs too weak or Minmatar ships too slow, they won't be able to beat anything - it's a very delicate balance to keep.

Imo, the best way of balancing Minmatar is allowing their ships to choose the tank type, then having them pick between range (TC vs TE) and speed (armor vs shield). That way, every player can find their sweet spot with ACs and/or artillery.



The age of winmatar was a lie. Minmatar were the easiest shisp to sue but smart players were aware that it was a myth.

Also minmatar for a LONG time has been deprived of their speed advantage.


Check the agility of minmatar ship comapred to gallente. Comapre rupture to thorax.. check the damm Navy omen that is faster than ANY minmatar ship bar the vagabond (that has the same speed.. the all mighty to be the fastest of the fastest is jsut same speed of the race that was supposed to be the slowest)


No.

The fact that 'truthers' still spew this dreck after all this time shows you how badly entrenched people were in the winmatar meta. Blasters sucked and were unusable in the vast majority of situations. ACs and Minmatar hulls were ubiquitous. That people still claim that it wasn't broken is ...

Also I don't have access to damage graphs right now, but won't 425s and/or 220s with emp out damage neutrons with null outside of scram range but inside of point range because of tracking? 99% sure 425s will, 80% sure 220s will. If they don't, it's going to be close. 41 DPS per gun with null. 38 or 36 DPS per with RF emp. And the ACs have better tracking after the null penalty. Hell, throw in damage selection and use Fusion against the armor blaster ship and I am certain the applied damage will be better on the ACs.

Point is, the blasters are competitive now. They were not before. Despite the lesser damage, range, damage selection and cap use make up for it with ACs. There are actual choices now - where there were not before.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#43 - 2014-04-24 15:06:29 UTC
I raised an issue with this a few years back. On certain ships there was a balance issue: Ships with range bonuses generally had weaker damage output (to make up for the fact they projected better. See: Stabber Vs. Rupture) . given that combat range is dictated by tackle range (e.g. 24KM unbounded) - it means that ships with double damage bonuses instead of range bonuses where doing more damage to tackle range using TE's than range bonused ships where doing, Once at close range, the problem got even worse.

I thought increasing point range to 30km would have been a better way to deal with it (and subsequently nerfing skirmish links) but they disagree'd and instead nerfed TE's and killed medium autocannons.

Next on today's agenda: Beam lasers and Railguns - how you can do more DPS while having 4x the range of blasters and pulses!

wp CCP... wp...
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#44 - 2014-04-24 16:01:17 UTC
Minmatar used to be 'Eve on Hard-Mode'. You Required 2x-3x the number of skillpoints to get the same effect from minmatar ships. The Rifter was amazing, best in class - but that's where it ended. A brick rupture was a fun thing but not realistic unless someone made the mistake of trying to brawl it. Vagabond? Suddenly it cant fit 4 stabs in a combat fit and stops being unkillable.

Years down the line, people's combat skills get better and they can start using lots of max skilled drones, max skilled guns and max skilled tank - T2 prices are lower than meta4 and ship become much more combat effective. Minmatar are the Jack of all trades and suddenly that flexibility combined with intelligent piloting, high SP and T2 bonuses leads to people who can operate in multiple different roles winning fights against 'Rock-Paper-Scissors' ships. 'Rock-Paper-Scissors' People start to moan.

Hurricane and Drake are OP, don't get nerfed... meanwhile the Myrm does get nerfed (it was OP but got over-nerfed). This exacerbates the problem. Sleipnir is a scary ship and post Eos nerf there are few command ships worth flying other than the sleip for combat - now T3's replace link command ships totally.

#Winmatar starts to trend.

Brick fit double and triple plated ships with 5k optimals and no speed complain they are being kited by minmatar, meanwhile long range low-tank ships complain they are being brawled down by AC boats. The age of extremes is coming to an and - plots are forced to be adaptable (Adapt or die?) in not only what ships they fly, but what roles that ship can perform at any given moment in a fight.

The Jack-of-all-trades race is definitely not the best at min-maxing, but it's amazing at exploiting the weaknesses of other ships using it's versatility. The nerf bat is incomgin

That was in the past, now it's Rails/Beams/Arty or GTFO.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#45 - 2014-04-24 16:21:24 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
Blaster vs Auto Graph


Keith Planck wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

While you can swap ammo mid fight, you cannot swap gun types.

Furthermore, your comparison doesn't take into account tracking.

Yes, blasters are the kings of scram/web range damage.
Lasers are the kings of long range damage.

Autocannons are the red headed bastard child of the two, tracking much better than lasers, with the range to hit decently beyond scram/web range.


That's the problem, in reality you don't have better damage past 10kms unless it's on a bonused hull like the vagabond. Null gets better projection out to 17kms, so the only ships who are ever at an advantage with autocannons are 20+km point kiters (even then, unless it's a bonused hull, your doing HALF of your dps at that range and barrage already has pretty low dps to begin with.

This is what these weapons should look like http://i.imgur.com/aDcfYNV.png


Your graph is wrong, as 17 km's is NOT the cross point between barrage and Null. The crossover is around 13.5 km's, which is OH Web range.

I agree that EMP is a little underwhelming, but it's advantages are selectable damage type to hit a target's resist hole and capless weapons. Both of these are HUGE advantages you keep ignoring.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#46 - 2014-04-24 16:24:42 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Stuff


It's funny how history changes depending on the person talking about it.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#47 - 2014-04-24 19:03:55 UTC
Yep either buff dps slightly or allow healthier falloff line via weapons tweaks not mods.

Blob online is current meta being in middle just means being squished from both sides disengage able non blob tactics died with minmatar nerfs imo.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#48 - 2014-04-24 20:34:50 UTC
1. Selectable damage types. Example: Actual dps of Minmatar guns is greater against T2 Gallente/Caldari hulls than Hybrids.
2. Cap usage is nil. Invulnerable to being nueted out.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#49 - 2014-04-24 20:58:52 UTC
Armor Rupture: With one ancil current router, it can fit full rack of 425's and a medium nuet.
Armor Thorax: With one ancil current router (and meta-4 mids) it can fit full rack of heavy ion blasters.

Shield Rupture: No fitting reqs, can fit TE in low, and 425s+Med Nuet
Shield Thorax: Needs one fitting mod, and can barely fit Neutrons. empty low (for nanofiber or overdrive). Cannot fit TE.

Are we comparing 425's to Heavy Ion blasters like we should, or are we comparing 425s to Neutrons?
425s: EMP - 1.5+12, Barrage - 3+18
Ions: Antimatter - 1.9+5, Null - 5.3+7
Keith Planck
Hi-Sec Huggers
#50 - 2014-04-24 20:58:55 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
1. Selectable damage types. Example: Actual dps of Minmatar guns is greater against T2 Gallente/Caldari hulls than Hybrids.
2. Cap usage is nil. Invulnerable to being nueted out.



Select-able damage types still don't make up for how **** autocannon dps is unless someone forgets to plug the EM or explosive hole.

♞
Keith Planck
Hi-Sec Huggers
#51 - 2014-04-24 21:00:16 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Armor Rupture: With one ancil current router, it can fit full rack of 425's and a medium nuet.
Armor Thorax: With one ancil current router (and meta-4 mids) it can fit full rack of heavy ion blasters.

Shield Rupture: No fitting reqs, can fit TE in low, and 425s+Med Nuet
Shield Thorax: Needs one fitting mod, and can barely fit Neutrons. empty low (for nanofiber or overdrive). Cannot fit TE.

Are we comparing 425's to Heavy Ion blasters like we should, or are we comparing 425s to Neutrons?
425s: EMP - 1.5+12, Barrage - 3+18
Ions: Antimatter - 1.9+5, Null - 5.3+7









I'm comparing guns, on ships, that actually get used. You can say that 425s have less fitting then neutrons and therefore should be compared to ions.

But not a single blaster ship has any more difficulty fitting Neutrons then autocannon ships have fitting autocannons. Except the Gnosis, but everyone knows you HAM fit the Gnosis.

♞
TheMercenaryKing
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-04-24 22:42:51 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
Blaster vs Auto Graph

Null is too strong.
EMP is too weak.

This isn't about lowsec 1v1 cruiser hulls.


T1 vs T2 ammo
different damage types
Cap using weapons vs non-cap using weapons
hulls (bonuses), implants, and skill levels not specified
Tracking not stated
Fit not specified

Cant help you without giving the data used in the test and only (parts of) the results.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#53 - 2014-04-25 00:08:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Your graph is wrong, as 17 km's is NOT the cross point between barrage and Null. The crossover is around 13.5 km's, which is OH Web range.

I agree that EMP is a little underwhelming, but it's advantages are selectable damage type to hit a target's resist hole and capless weapons. Both of these are HUGE advantages you keep ignoring.

Yeah, I'm getting ~5200m as the crossover from Antimatter to Null, 13.5km as the crossover from Null to Barrage, and ~8200m as the crossover from EMP to Barrage.

So yeah, sure. Autocannons are outdone by Blasters under 13.5km. At that point though they pass over.

Now against a moving target, things are different. Antimatter is clearly best until around 13km, after that is EMP from around 13km until 21km. From 21km on, Barrage is the best.

So what I'm seeing is basically that Blasters are best in scram/web range (up to and including OH web/scram) and after that the Autocannons outdamage them. This is without tracking or range bonuses, so of course this'll be different when comparing, say, a Stabber and a Thorax. But that is to be expected. That's simply how it works.

And then to reiterate everything that's been said in here already: capless weapons, selectable damage type, jack of all trades. Wow, the jack of all trades gets beaten in close range when fighting the specialized close range weapon system. Better fix that!


As I said earlier in the thread, about a 10% damage increase might be acceptable. Something small-ish like that shouldn't imbalance things too much. Any more though, and we'll be right back in a Winmatar meta.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-04-27 10:16:31 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Just bump up base damage or falloff on autocannons and it will be ok, preferably damage. Not too much though because we still want blasters to be king of brawling.

Falloff would be the way to go.

Falloff differentiates the weapon systems, damage just closes the gap on homogenization in both damage and functionality.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
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