Science & Industry

Here is a secret:

Nobody cares about your space hobby. Bring bros to fleets and you will never be bothered about doing industry.

Just don't expect anyone to be considerate about your towers, slots, minerals and other stuff. If the **** hits the fan an alliance needs to react. It's the same with ratters, they just have lighter bags to pack.

Alliances will do whatever they want to achieve their goals. If that doesn't include industry corps then it won't.

You seem to be blaming alliances for doing what is in their best interests as an outcome of the rules and item demand of nullsec. You can't do T2 or T3 production in null as easily as empire yet non-sov warfare uses mostly T2/T3 items. Cap production is in demand because of sov warfare and the ability to do it with base minerals. Logistics is far easier and less time to do than all industry and isk has a 0m3 volume. Ratting and buying what you need semi-instantly seems a lot easier than waiting a week for someone to build a T2 cruiser for you.

So if you were an alliance that had these demands, what would kind of corp would you want to defend when sov is contested? When you look in alliance chat and see 300 members as a cap fleet jumps in your system to bash your structures, who do you want to respond? 300 ratters/pvpers or a bunch of multi-box miners?

Alliances are only doing what is in their best interests. If those interests change after the industry changes, then they will react in the same way - what's best for them. You should figure out what those interests are and provide it, then you'll get an invite.

Frankly, I don't see a need to change the attitude. The current attitude is "As an alliance, we don't click "invite to join alliance" to every 30 man indy corp that wants to join". If you think individual spais getting in is a problem....

If you want to join a large alliance, you need the following: ACTIVE members who contribute to strategic and combat fleet ops, across several TZ's; at least 50+ ACTIVE members minimum, usually more; ability to show you fit with the alliance personality; maybe even a "niche" that makes you special.

The last one, the "niche" - why can't you just all roll into an existing corp instead of bringing your corp in separate? If you have a specific set of skills as a corp that is lacking in the alliance, you have more to bring to the table. T3 producer? Moon reaction chain in place? 50% of members help crank out Capitals? etc?

For the record, we're an "indy corp". Several Brave corps are. But PVP is fun, and for the indy corps to maintain access to needed, lucrative resources we must spend as much time protecting/taking said resources as much as we do our Indy trade.

Obviously CCP doesn't think this way since they're buffing nullsec industry.

So really what is the point of buffing nullsec industry if its only supercaps etc that nullsec alliances want ?

Maybe a DEV might try explaining this contradiction that seems to exist with CCP's development plans for nullsec and what nullsec alliances want. And hopefully buff highsec industry as they should have done.

No "effort" is being made at the moment because currently it's overwhelmingly more cost effective to simply import whatever we need direct from Jita. I can literally order complete fitted ships on our alliance form and have them delivered direct to staging point for Jita price +10%. Thus if we can't build what need need for Jita Price + 9% or less, then there's no point going to all the effort and making the large investments required.

Yeah it's almost as if conditions are being changed

In essence, the job of the industry corp is to show how they can make the alliance better off by allowing them to use those facilities than the alliance would be by using their own alts.

If there was some mechanism whereby players could become skilled at producing superior goods or could extract superior efficiencies from the resources, then maybe. (And I mean the players, not their characters - so that getting a production bonus and making better quality goods was actually a matter of player skill). Then there would be a meaningful place for production specialists in 0.0, just like there is a place for tackle specialists or dictor specialists or bomber specialists in fleets.

But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.

The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.

You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?

So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?

After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?