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Artificial Intelligence in EVE
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-04-23 17:40:30 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
Sleepers. That is all.


I thought sleepers were suppose to be these machines that had given form to a civilization that uploaded their consciousness into matrix like construct.

The sleeper drones that guard them however, are NOT manned, they are autonomous.

And again, between this thread, and that other thread asking for AI pets/ships to follow you, AI in EVE is bad, like, Battlestar Galactica bad.

and someone really had to link that awful chronicle abou the rogue drones, that ***** messed up yo, rogue drones lore is just pure nightmare fuel
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-04-23 18:15:24 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
Sleepers. That is all.


I thought sleepers were suppose to be these machines that had given form to a civilization that uploaded their consciousness into matrix like construct.

The sleeper drones that guard them however, are NOT manned, they are autonomous.

And again, between this thread, and that other thread asking for AI pets/ships to follow you, AI in EVE is bad, like, Battlestar Galactica bad.

and someone really had to link that awful chronicle abou the rogue drones, that ***** messed up yo, rogue drones lore is just pure nightmare fuel



Sorry about that... Big smile That one sticks in my mind, whenever anyone brings up EVE AI. (I wonder why? Big smile) And I'd say AI in EVE is far worse than Battlestar Galactica bad...

If I remember the lore on sleeper drones correctly, they are actually less intelligent than rogue drones, but far more effective & efficient. They are not a true AI, but are instead following pre-programmed orders, just extremely complex ones. It's been a while since I've read that lore, so I could be wrong.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2014-04-23 18:59:24 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
Sleepers. That is all.


I thought sleepers were suppose to be these machines that had given form to a civilization that uploaded their consciousness into matrix like construct.

The sleeper drones that guard them however, are NOT manned, they are autonomous.

And again, between this thread, and that other thread asking for AI pets/ships to follow you, AI in EVE is bad, like, Battlestar Galactica bad.

and someone really had to link that awful chronicle abou the rogue drones, that ***** messed up yo, rogue drones lore is just pure nightmare fuel



Sorry about that... Big smile That one sticks in my mind, whenever anyone brings up EVE AI. (I wonder why? Big smile) And I'd say AI in EVE is far worse than Battlestar Galactica bad...

If I remember the lore on sleeper drones correctly, they are actually less intelligent than rogue drones, but far more effective & efficient. They are not a true AI, but are instead following pre-programmed orders, just extremely complex ones. It's been a while since I've read that lore, so I could be wrong.

No, that sums up about what the sleeper drones are, they are an AI insofar as they can ascertain a situation and react, very minimalist, cant operate outside their original parameters. So they can decide "hey, ill attack this guy, hes the best force-multiplier they have" or "hey, target this guy first, he made fun of my mother" (because seriously, sometimes there is no excuse for how they choose to prioritize targets besides personal vendetta)

which is why they will defend to death the long-dead sleeper enclaves, but never actually move to attack the holdings of those who repeatedly harass them, because their task is to guard, not attack.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#44 - 2014-04-23 19:01:23 UTC
Drone AI falls just below the intelligence of a dog and a little above the intelligence of a gate camper.


I don't think it'll get better for a while but it would be epic to see a dedicated system tried out as an experiment. I did a multiplayer all wireframe graphics "game" in the late 90s using Java RPC and before they added all that graphics stuff (back in my day, we wrote our own matrix classes and had to call translate and rotate on purpose in 3' of snow) and to test interaction I added a simple cube model, called it a "Bored Cube" and had it chase other ships around launching foul language and missiles at them. That "AI" might seem simple enough but even that low level stuff took a little work.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-04-23 20:21:03 UTC
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
I will start with a question. Is EVE portraying AI reasonably accurately for the futuristic culture it is in?

Seeing advances in AI today, whether in software simulations or with hardware, can we say whether people with spaceships, stargates and capsuleers are rivalled by AI? Those drones people fight, should they be equivalent to a capsuleer - even one with augmentations basically hardwiring them to their ship- or should the drones precisely and accurately blow you out of your ride?

How much of a capsuleers ride has to be AI as well to allow the reaction time necessary to fight machines? AI today is capable of driving simulation vehicles at an equivalent 250mph down a road bordered with fences and maintain accurately a distance of 1/10 th of an inch from the edge fence while navigating bumps! Surely space AI is capable of more.

Any discussion of this is appreciated, and if you can refer me to EVE stories of AI, even better!

I think you are forgetting how much of the eve experience is only possible because of AI.. Just the fact that you can jump from system to system without dying is likely due to AI.

If by AI you mean automated functions CCP has actively fought against botting the game. If by AI you mean drone and pirate attacker function I know what you mean but CCP has actually improved this some over the years. Remember that AI, good AI is going to take more space than the eve software currently takes up. Give the devs time.. eventually they are going to improve every bit of the game including AI.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-04-23 23:15:09 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Drone AI falls just below the intelligence of a dog and a little above the intelligence of a gate camper.


I don't think it'll get better for a while but it would be epic to see a dedicated system tried out as an experiment. I did a multiplayer all wireframe graphics "game" in the late 90s using Java RPC and before they added all that graphics stuff (back in my day, we wrote our own matrix classes and had to call translate and rotate on purpose in 3' of snow) and to test interaction I added a simple cube model, called it a "Bored Cube" and had it chase other ships around launching foul language and missiles at them. That "AI" might seem simple enough but even that low level stuff took a little work.



Sounds like it would have been a fun project.

You can script your AI to follow a set pattern (potentially with a bit of randomness thrown in to avoid predictability) or you can have your AI learn gradually from its experiences or you can do a bit of both. No method is perfect.

Basically though if current AI could tactically fight better than humans (rather than just cheat by shooting better or being tougher) we would no longer be putting humans in real world tanks and planes. Note that real world drones are not AI they are remotely controlled by a human.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-04-24 01:22:01 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Drone AI falls just below the intelligence of a dog and a little above the intelligence of a gate camper.


I don't think it'll get better for a while but it would be epic to see a dedicated system tried out as an experiment. I did a multiplayer all wireframe graphics "game" in the late 90s using Java RPC and before they added all that graphics stuff (back in my day, we wrote our own matrix classes and had to call translate and rotate on purpose in 3' of snow) and to test interaction I added a simple cube model, called it a "Bored Cube" and had it chase other ships around launching foul language and missiles at them. That "AI" might seem simple enough but even that low level stuff took a little work.



Sounds like it would have been a fun project.

You can script your AI to follow a set pattern (potentially with a bit of randomness thrown in to avoid predictability) or you can have your AI learn gradually from its experiences or you can do a bit of both. No method is perfect.

Basically though if current AI could tactically fight better than humans (rather than just cheat by shooting better or being tougher) we would no longer be putting humans in real world tanks and planes. Note that real world drones are not AI they are remotely controlled by a human.

I think it would be cool if CCP put an RTS-AI into EVE to cammand the Empires to invade and be invaded by capsuleers (with scaled power, of course, so they arent just curb stomped).

after all, the whole point now is that the empire's are seeing their power over the capsuleers diminish, so with all these empires sudenly seeing vast empires and coalitions surrounding them, woudlnt they think maybe turning their militias against them, and in the most dire of circumstances, allying together in a united front agaisnt them?

Honestly I just want to see VFK hellcamped by the Holy Amarr Navy
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-04-24 04:26:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
...
But the human brain is a supercomputer......


I called it.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#49 - 2014-04-24 08:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkarth Tlakotani
AI in various uses:

Meta game use of AI - every rat in the game
In game uses-
1- the concept of capsuleers controlling huge ships by themselves, the ships have to help somehow.
2- gate AI allowing jumps, etc. might as well make a lot of sov and other modules in this category.
3- death and cloning processes. See movie Transcendance for other aspects of this...
4- Dust bunnies vs enemy drones or even sanshas.

The general opinion I've seen is devoting assets to improved in game AI (better sleepers, etc&) would take a lot of bandwidth. IMHO it would also not be good to have every enemy as a Concord like AI, since that would kill PVE for mere humans at consoles.

Anything else?
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#50 - 2014-04-24 10:33:02 UTC
I'm gonna stay away from lore. I don't know enough about that. I don't have crew in my ships for example. Trust me on that. Its just me you're facing. All those pawns were proven ineffective years ago.

AI in EVE is... absent

If you run across a player controlled BS, you may want to think really hard about your ability to kill it.

If you run across 6 NPC controlled BS's, 12 BC, 6 dessies and a few frigs, you grab a cup of coffee and make some isk.


To put things into perspective:

Take your 256 man fleet and come up with an ideal composition of ships (tackle, webbers, links etc). Now add the ability to respond in unison, all the time.
Any player controlled fleet that pulls that off will be dangerous to say the least. Also known as: "fire at the primary you f**ks"

AI would mean this happens all the time with targets being properly selected all time. DPS being calculated on trajectory, distance etc. before shots being fired. Wings splitting targets not to waste DPS. Tackle splitting their points to grab as many targets as possible...

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