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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1281 - 2014-04-23 20:30:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

You chosing to ignore half of the ships bonuses does not mean the ship should get even more firepower.


It's still a better argument than "We trained for a droneboat only and they should respect how we used our skillpoints!"

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1282 - 2014-04-23 20:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

You chosing to ignore half of the ships bonuses does not mean the ship should get even more firepower.


It's still a better argument than "We trained for a droneboat only and they should respect how we used our skillpoints!"



So you agree that we should request that rapid light and heavy missiles should not gain the bonus?

Because you have consistently argued that with a decent drone system they make it overpowered?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1283 - 2014-04-23 20:35:59 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

You chosing to ignore half of the ships bonuses does not mean the ship should get even more firepower.


It's still a better argument than "We trained for a droneboat only and they should respect how we used our skillpoints!"



So you agree that we should request that rapid light and heavy missiles should not gain the bonus?


Hell no, that's one of the things I like most about the redesigned ship. Rise even confirmed that being used with smaller launchers was intended.

I agree that it is the primary balancing factor weighing in against bonusing smaller drones, but of the two, the missiles are the better bonus because it means you get 2 primary weapon systems worth of dps.

Aside from adding a bit more CPU, I am pretty much perfectly satisfied with the ship for now. I want to see it combined with the drone changes on SiSi before I make any further judgements about it's effectiveness in a real situation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1284 - 2014-04-23 20:36:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

You chosing to ignore half of the ships bonuses does not mean the ship should get even more firepower.


It's still a better argument than "We trained for a droneboat only and they should respect how we used our skillpoints!"



So you agree that we should request that rapid light and heavy missiles should not gain the bonus?

Because you have consistently argued that with a decent drone system they make it overpowered?


The bonus to all missile launchers is what makes the ship so exciting. Its the thing that makes it one of the most adaptable ships of any class.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1285 - 2014-04-23 20:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

I have a suggestion for the superdrone concept for the rattlesnake, please read it all if you have any interest in this ship.

Before anyone goes on, The Following Proposals add absolutely Zero, not one DPS. To this ship.

The superdrone concept appears to have the concept of reducing the number of drone in large fights and sentries have been the weapon needing to be reduced in quantities.

Other drones were not such a major issue..

I suggest leaving sentries exactly the same as the current rebalance thread.


As for the other drones I leaving the 2 heavy drones exactly the same as currently. They will be mainly ignored.

However I recommend that the medium drones gain bonuses to bring them to exactly the same damage and hitpoints as a flight of heavies.

This makes them useful and not overpowered,
They will have some application against frigates as even glancing blows will give some applied damage to fast light ships.

Each fit, whether missiles, mediums, or sentries require different fitting compromises preventing one system being overpowered by the addition of the other.

5 medium superdrones solves most of the issues we have encountered.


It gives the option of a medium and close range drone system. And a slightly longer range sentry system.

The DLA removal issue is still a problem for sentries, but the superdrones do give an alternative now with this suggestion, rather than there being no really good drone choice now.



Please say what you feel, please do not use this as just a means to attack others, but really, is it a good idea?


No. The ability to use any size launcher would make the ship a horrific bloated destroyer if it got that same level of dps out of mediums.

That is why my earlier and now deleted suggestions focused on increasing the superdrone bonus on heavies and sentries to be closer to those enjoyed by the smaller hulls in the Gurista line.

Drones do less damage than other systems, partly because of their supreme application at all sizes. That flexibility is partly being sacrificed to the superdrone concept. This is fine on the smaller hulls because the drawbacks are compensated with a 60% increase in HP and DPS to the size appropriate drones over that of other in class drone platforms.

In the interest of maintaining the balance of the pirate lines, I would suggest a 400% superdrone bonus, putting max effective weapons at 17.5 on the hull. While potentially best in class, this would be ameliorated by drones traditional lighter damage, the launchers often being undersized, the innefficiency of fitting for two discreet weapon systems, lack of implants and such for drones, and the compromises required for a ship trying to fit Two weapon systems and a Tank all notorious for their CPU consumtion. The Rattlesnake will have many options, but not all of them will be possible all the time. The balance and compromises between damage, application, tank and overall fitting will be brutal, but meaningful.



Hmm yes, if you could fit fully bonused rapid lights and medium superdrones at the same time that could be an issue.

Actually to make superdrones actually work, one should not bonus rapids on this ship, that is actually the issue that is making it overpowered and unable to utilise a sensible drone weapons system.

Trying to force this weapons concept (rapid lights and mediums) on is making it impossible for it to be anything else.


It does seem to have some scaling issues. The biggest seems to be the perception of how powerful drones are. They are not overly weak, but they do have thier drawbacks. The Superdrone concept just alters the drawbacks, but does not eliminate them--- and if the performance is left at the break even point of 7.5 it is a straight up nerf to the weapon system.

The missiles cannot be ignored, but neither can the fact that this ship will often be using undersized launchers to recover an advantage usually held by drones. This creates a situation where you must balance total DPS vs Application, while also allowing for tank and all of it eating tremendous CPU.

Even just allowing the standard 500% Medium superdrone bonus would make this ship do horrific pedophilliac things to anything smaller than a battleship, much less whatever extra would be put on there to scale it to Heavy levels of damage. The pilots of battleships would be walking funny due to rectal penetration too, despite the smaller launchers.

Dont go too far down the rabbit hole of Battleship level damage applied as if it was a medium weapon system. Down that path lies maddness.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1286 - 2014-04-23 20:45:28 UTC
Very well, it seems that you wish the rattlesnake to be a missile platform, it is not actually balance we are talking about at all. it is being determined to retain the advantage.

I can relate to that, that is fine, but there is room for drone users to have some consideration too.

Please by all means argue for the benefits of your desired system, that is quite fine, but please do not talk about balance when it is used as a means of squashing all those who might want a different choice. When an alternative balance is proposed, the real views have been shown.

Try to work with the drone users to find a way we can all enjoy this ship.

We do know that we can fly it as a missile ship, it is clearly the better option by far at the moment, all we ask for is for our use not to be completely made, so undesirable it is no longer a viable option. There must be an option where you do not lose and others can still benefit too.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1287 - 2014-04-23 20:48:01 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Very well, it seems that you wish the rattlesnake to be a missile platform, it is not actually balance we are talking about at all. it is being determined to retain the advantage.

I can relate to that, that is fine, but there is room for drone users to have some consideration too.

Please by all means argue for the benefits of your desired system, that is quite fine, but please do not talk about balance when it is used as a means of squashing all those who might want a different choice. When an alternative balance is proposed, the real views have been shown.

Try to work with the drone users to find a way we can all enjoy this ship.

We do know that we can fly it as a missile ship, it is clearly the better option by far at the moment, all we ask for is for our use not to be completely made, so undesirable it is no longer a viable option. There must be an option where you do not lose and others can still benefit too.


If you want a drone only ship and use a Rattle, you are using the wrong ship after the change. You then have 3 choice.

1- Use a fail fit to go drone only with a rattler.
2- Use the right ship for drones only.
3- Fit your rattler for dual weapon so it work as intended.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1288 - 2014-04-23 20:50:02 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Try to work with the drone users to find a way we can all enjoy this ship.



They already did. If you don't want the missiles as a focus, drop any BCUs you might fit, and add the new drone tracking modules in the lowslots.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1289 - 2014-04-23 20:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Mike Voidstar wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

I have a suggestion for the superdrone concept for the rattlesnake, please read it all if you have any interest in this ship.

Before anyone goes on, The Following Proposals add absolutely Zero, not one DPS. To this ship.

The superdrone concept appears to have the concept of reducing the number of drone in large fights and sentries have been the weapon needing to be reduced in quantities.

Other drones were not such a major issue..

I suggest leaving sentries exactly the same as the current rebalance thread.


As for the other drones I leaving the 2 heavy drones exactly the same as currently. They will be mainly ignored.

However I recommend that the medium drones gain bonuses to bring them to exactly the same damage and hitpoints as a flight of heavies.

This makes them useful and not overpowered,
They will have some application against frigates as even glancing blows will give some applied damage to fast light ships.

Each fit, whether missiles, mediums, or sentries require different fitting compromises preventing one system being overpowered by the addition of the other.

5 medium superdrones solves most of the issues we have encountered.


It gives the option of a medium and close range drone system. And a slightly longer range sentry system.

The DLA removal issue is still a problem for sentries, but the superdrones do give an alternative now with this suggestion, rather than there being no really good drone choice now.



Please say what you feel, please do not use this as just a means to attack others, but really, is it a good idea?


No. The ability to use any size launcher would make the ship a horrific bloated destroyer if it got that same level of dps out of mediums.

That is why my earlier and now deleted suggestions focused on increasing the superdrone bonus on heavies and sentries to be closer to those enjoyed by the smaller hulls in the Gurista line.

Drones do less damage than other systems, partly because of their supreme application at all sizes. That flexibility is partly being sacrificed to the superdrone concept. This is fine on the smaller hulls because the drawbacks are compensated with a 60% increase in HP and DPS to the size appropriate drones over that of other in class drone platforms.

In the interest of maintaining the balance of the pirate lines, I would suggest a 400% superdrone bonus, putting max effective weapons at 17.5 on the hull. While potentially best in class, this would be ameliorated by drones traditional lighter damage, the launchers often being undersized, the innefficiency of fitting for two discreet weapon systems, lack of implants and such for drones, and the compromises required for a ship trying to fit Two weapon systems and a Tank all notorious for their CPU consumtion. The Rattlesnake will have many options, but not all of them will be possible all the time. The balance and compromises between damage, application, tank and overall fitting will be brutal, but meaningful.



Hmm yes, if you could fit fully bonused rapid lights and medium superdrones at the same time that could be an issue.

Actually to make superdrones actually work, one should not bonus rapids on this ship, that is actually the issue that is making it overpowered and unable to utilise a sensible drone weapons system.

Trying to force this weapons concept (rapid lights and mediums) on is making it impossible for it to be anything else.


It does seem to have some scaling issues. The biggest seems to be the perception of how powerful drones are. They are not overly weak, but they do have thier drawbacks. The Superdrone concept just alters the drawbacks, but does not eliminate them--- and if the performance is left at the break even point of 7.5 it is a straight up nerf to the weapon system.

The missiles cannot be ignored, but neither can the fact that this ship will often be using undersized launchers to recover an advantage usually held by drones. This creates a situation where you must balance total DPS vs Application, while also allowing for tank and all of it eating tremendous CPU.

Even just allowing the standard 500% Medium superdrone bonus would make this ship do horrific pedophilliac things to anything smaller than a battleship, much less whatever extra would be put on there to scale it to Heavy levels of damage. The pilots of battleships would be walking funny due to rectal penetration too, despite the smaller launchers.

Dont go too far down the rabbit hole of Battleship level damage applied as if it was a medium weapon system. Down that path lies maddness.


Ouch not 500% for 5 dronesShocked that would be more than interesting.
Heavies are not that powerful.
The idea is for the superdrones to be an alternative to sentries, enabling mobility, with the disadvantage of having to send them off into battle.
Heavies are so slow it is more like sending out a khamakazi mission.
Mediums at least could get to the target, and frigates and cruisers etc in missions focus on them.
Probably the best balanced drone overall

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1290 - 2014-04-23 20:53:41 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Ouch not 500% for 5 dronesShocked that would be more than interesting.
Heavies are not that powerful.
The idea is for the superdrones to be an alternative to sentries, enabling mobility, with the disadvantage of having to send them off into battle.
Heavies are so slow it is more like sending out a khamakazi mission.


Heavies are getting a huge speed buff.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1291 - 2014-04-23 21:18:20 UTC
I really dislike the 'superdrone' approach.

Sure, it works as a temporary sticking plaster solution to the server load problem - temporary, as this invariably will come back to bite as eve grows; and sticking plaster, because the drone system as a whole is horribly creaking these days. But for me the main rub of it is that it sucks from a background perspective - what? this drone, if scoped up and redeployed by this ship, now hits nearly 4 times as hard (and has 4x the armour/shield e.t.c) as it did before from a different ship?... come on....

Can only hope someday the system is revisited to be able to properly represent drone boats and drone 'swarms', just as per the Eve of old.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1292 - 2014-04-23 21:26:21 UTC
It should be a dual platform, but that should come with some benefits to compensate the problems it causes.

You have 2 levels of discussion here.

First, if superdrones had not been conceptualised, 90% of this discussion would not have taken place. The standard full 50% universal drone bonus is accepted as balanced with or without splitting into a second weapon system (see the gallente drone fleet). While this would not have been great in light of the fleet issue minmatar ship that also split systems but doubled bonuses, it would have been fine... I dont think anyone really needs 15 effective drones even without considering condensing them into 2 drones in space or the nighmares frigate pilots would have when contemplating Gilas and Rattlesnakes. Either way the 10% watered down missile bonus, especially applied to all launcher sizes, and the extra launcher slot would likely have been hailed an unmitigated triumph of ship design. I ache in the orifice I store my love of the Navy Comet just thinking about it, but I doubt anyone would have blinked.

Second, you have the superdrone concept. This bonus needs to stay balanced with drone bonuses in general, but it greatly alters the dynamics of drone use in a number of unpredictable ways. One of the fundamental changes is the loss of situational flexibility. It would be a pretty big deal on a standard drone boat, but it meshes well with the universal launcher bonus... You retain the flexibility but lose the situational aspect of it... You undock with your strategy in mind rather than the situational adaptibility droneships are based around. You also lose much of the inherant resiliance to Ewar, which has been discussed at length. Most importantly the idea hinges around the gains in drone survivability by concentrating the drones into just 2, and compensating the additional vunerabilities from standard drone ships with an increase in performance. This value was set at 60% for the Worm and Gila, but the Rattlesnake remains uncompensated to a large degree for the price it paid for superdrones vs. the standard drone bonus.

In the case of the Rattlesnake the extra launcher makes up for some of the lack, so a full 60% increase to heavy and sentries would likely be....harsh...on the competition. However, leaving it at the break even point isnt balanced either... Far from oversizing both bonuses to a split weapon platform, it actually nerfs the drones, and without a 6th launcher and/or the fitting & slots to outfit the ship fully for both weapon systems leaves the ship stuck with using one bonus to compensate the shortcommings of the other.

Compromising on 10 effective heavy/sentries seems the best course to me.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1293 - 2014-04-23 21:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

Edit: As I posted previously, if all drones were bonused, there would be nothing, nothing sub captial this thing couldnt chew up and spit out with a single fitting (mad, uber boosted 7km/s intys and other stupidness aside). If you disagree - how could we possibly stop a RHML, full drone bonused 'snake? How? Edit 2: Fleeing the scene doesnt count.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1294 - 2014-04-23 21:34:21 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mike Voidstar wrote:
It should be a dual platform, but that should come with some benefits to compensate the problems it causes.

You have 2 levels of discussion here.

First, if superdrones had not been conceptualised, 90% of this discussion would not have taken place. The standard full 50% universal drone bonus is accepted as balanced with or without splitting into a second weapon system (see the gallente drone fleet). While this would not have been great in light of the fleet issue minmatar ship that also split systems but doubled bonuses, it would have been fine... I dont think anyone really needs 15 effective drones even without considering condensing them into 2 drones in space or the nighmares frigate pilots would have when contemplating Gilas and Rattlesnakes. Either way the 10% watered down missile bonus, especially applied to all launcher sizes, and the extra launcher slot would likely have been hailed an unmitigated triumph of ship design. I ache in the orifice I store my love of the Navy Comet just thinking about it, but I doubt anyone would have blinked.

Second, you have the superdrone concept. This bonus needs to stay balanced with drone bonuses in general, but it greatly alters the dynamics of drone use in a number of unpredictable ways. One of the fundamental changes is the loss of situational flexibility. It would be a pretty big deal on a standard drone boat, but it meshes well with the universal launcher bonus... You retain the flexibility but lose the situational aspect of it... You undock with your strategy in mind rather than the situational adaptibility droneships are based around. You also lose much of the inherant resiliance to Ewar, which has been discussed at length. Most importantly the idea hinges around the gains in drone survivability by concentrating the drones into just 2, and compensating the additional vunerabilities from standard drone ships with an increase in performance. This value was set at 60% for the Worm and Gila, but the Rattlesnake remains uncompensated to a large degree for the price it paid for superdrones vs. the standard drone bonus.

In the case of the Rattlesnake the extra launcher makes up for some of the lack, so a full 60% increase to heavy and sentries would likely be....harsh...on the competition. However, leaving it at the break even point isnt balanced either... Far from oversizing both bonuses to a split weapon platform, it actually nerfs the drones, and without a 6th launcher and/or the fitting & slots to outfit the ship fully for both weapon systems leaves the ship stuck with using one bonus to compensate the shortcommings of the other.

Compromising on 10 effective heavy/sentries seems the best course to me.



Personally I like the superdrone concept on ships of cruiser class and smaller, it gives cruisers mobility in exchange for switching to superdrone mediums.I am less convinced on battleship class ships, particularly as they did not gain any benefit to make up for all of the losses. Sure we can point at missiles and discuss the gains there, but overall, there is no real benefit and many, many compromises on the drone side that just do not add up to a balanced system.

10 effective sentry and heavy drones under the new superdrone regime, would certainly mean there was a reason to use them.
But as for heavies, I really see little point that a slightly lesser bonused medium (as in the Gila) would not achieve as well.
Or is the Gila suddenly the most powerful anti frigate ship in eve and I have somehow failed to see it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1295 - 2014-04-23 21:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Because:

Bonused light drones will eat frigates very quickly.
Bonused RHML with bonused mediums will eat cruisers very quickly
Bonused Heavy/Sentry and RHML will eat BC/BS very quickly.

You cant possibly have ALL of those on a single hull.


The bonuses they already have would be too much with a global missile bonus. There would be nothing you could bring to the field that would make this thing blink.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1296 - 2014-04-23 22:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Doggy Dogwoofwoof
I want to point something out about damage loss. Lets say you have a cruise fit Snake, and you have to recall one of your drones. You are NOT losing 50% of your damage. You are losing 25% of your total damage, Vs losing 20% if 1 sentry misses Currently.
PS. Good job so far Ezwal, And good luck keeping up with this threadBig smile
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1297 - 2014-04-23 23:24:20 UTC
Ironically the ship a "super drone" matches best Lore wise is a marauder but we have no drone marauders.

IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea Maybe the Rattler could be given a bastion module Twisted
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1298 - 2014-04-24 00:07:48 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
IdeaIdeaIdeaIdea Maybe the Rattler could be given a bastion module Twisted

Why don't we just throw a Covert Ops cloak on it... Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#1299 - 2014-04-24 01:28:10 UTC
So uh.... Yeah the Nightmare looks fun. Right guys? Guys?....
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1300 - 2014-04-24 01:43:15 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
So uh.... Yeah the Nightmare looks fun. Right guys? Guys?....

Was there a change to the Nightmare...? What's that...? Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.