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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Zappity
Kurved Trading
#1581 - 2014-04-23 09:45:08 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.


As you mention it... since CONCORD is not able to provide direct chat access in W-space, how is the SCC or any other NPC corp (assuming that the fees for jobs are paid to these NPC entities) supposed to collect the fees from W-space POS? Of course, it's just a game and logic only goes so far; but how could the SCC reach W-space to collect fees when it's mighty mother company CONCORD cannot access W-space?

I don't really care to be honest. Just a balancing cost.

I'd love to see J-space bonused for T3 and booster production and lowsec for subcaps and T2 modules (or whatever). Some differentiation would be nice apart from cost alone.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1582 - 2014-04-23 09:46:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.


As you mention it... since CONCORD is not able to provide direct chat access in W-space, how is the SCC or any other NPC corp (assuming that the fees for jobs are paid to these NPC entities) supposed to collect the fees from W-space POS? Of course, it's just a game and logic only goes so far; but how could the SCC reach W-space to collect fees when it's mighty mother company CONCORD cannot access W-space?

@Soldarius (or shall I say Hibana?)

Wonderful post of you. I just hope you give me reason to put my ignorance away, because as things stand there is no reason to show 00 sec any less of it. Blink



Because all your banking is done in K-Space, and they just garnish your income? Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1583 - 2014-04-23 09:49:31 UTC
skim read back across the last posts and two things come out. One is that hisec has every advantage for S&I. I still don't believe that since to produce many goods I need materials or products that can only be sourced from low/null. Choose to no longer supply those and you choke hisec industry. Hand in hand with this is 'level the playing field' in S&I.

Fine, I have no problem with nullsec stations being opened up ( just with nullsec *always* having to be better for every area) to allow more slots etc...in return how about giving hisec and WH's moon goo? That'll level the manufacturing capabilities of all the areas in terms of materials available. Simply have moons in hisec less profitable as with the other materials. of course the moons in WH should then be super profitable.

It was my understanding that having less mexallon in null and no moon goo in hi was intended to increase player and goods mobility. Buffing null industry (not simply opening it up on an even basis) would surely go against this as null has everything available locally where the other areas do not, setting aside the obvious retorts about how hard it is to acquire resources in null. The point is that null will be the only self contained area capable of producing everything in game. To level the playing field every area would have to have everything accessible.

The game should either keep the principle of player and goods mobility which I would prefer, more people moving around means more interaction. Different security areas being better (or the only) option for certain goods or services makes for a more diverse setting.

Otherwise level the playing field by making everything available everywhere, with amounts available and effort required to gather those amounts being scaled based upon security area. This would be the only way to argue that risk vs reward is truly in play.

Somebody a while back pointed out that they wanted to do S&I in null rather than use the current hisec alt. If this was a case of wanting to do S&I as something else to do in the game then what is the issue with having a hisec alt to do this? The drive to move S&I into null is for ease of production and improved profit in nullsec otherwise why push so hard for the change?

The strength of Eve as a game is the diversity of playstyles and areas, a push to 'encourage' players to move to null as they progress is artificial and stifling in my opinion.. I would argue that more and stronger differences between the security areas would be much better.

I would also quite like to see something like the border zones between losec and null becoming a warzone between null and empire (kind of extended faction war I guess but pitting empire fleet backed capsuleers against null capsuleer fleets. This would be more likely to entice hisec players to venture to null for combat and would introduce many new players to those areas. How achievable this would be I'm not sure but giving people the choice to participate in null combat from hisec bases would be more likely to encourage people to move down than forcing them by slowly crippling the economy of the higher security system

A bit rambling...but whatever...i'm bored in work :D

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1584 - 2014-04-23 09:51:02 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.


As you mention it... since CONCORD is not able to provide direct chat access in W-space, how is the SCC or any other NPC corp (assuming that the fees for jobs are paid to these NPC entities) supposed to collect the fees from W-space POS? Of course, it's just a game and logic only goes so far; but how could the SCC reach W-space to collect fees when it's mighty mother company CONCORD cannot access W-space?

I don't really care to be honest. Just a balancing cost.

I'd love to see J-space bonused for T3 and booster production and lowsec for subcaps and T2 modules (or whatever). Some differentiation would be nice apart from cost alone.


Exactly my thinking, differentiate the regions to give people more variety and choice in activities. I would much prefer there to be strong differences between and reasons to travel to the various regions of space.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1585 - 2014-04-23 10:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Since we're focusing on risk vs reward I'm assuming wormhole industry is going to be absolutely fantastic.

Looking forward to the figures dev blog.


As you mention it... since CONCORD is not able to provide direct chat access in W-space, how is the SCC or any other NPC corp (assuming that the fees for jobs are paid to these NPC entities) supposed to collect the fees from W-space POS? Of course, it's just a game and logic only goes so far; but how could the SCC reach W-space to collect fees when it's mighty mother company CONCORD cannot access W-space?

@Soldarius (or shall I say Hibana?)

Wonderful post of you. I just hope you give me reason to put my ignorance away, because as things stand there is no reason to show 00 sec any less of it. Blink



Because all your banking is done in K-Space, and they just garnish your income? Blink


And how does SCC learn about your fees incuring activities if you are in W-space, where the subspace beacons who relay that kind of information in K-space are not reachable?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

King Fu Hostile
Shiva Furnace
#1586 - 2014-04-23 10:46:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
skim read back across the last posts and two things come out. One is that hisec has every advantage for S&I. I still don't believe that since to produce many goods I need materials or products that can only be sourced from low/null. Choose to no longer supply those and you choke hisec industry. Hand in hand with this is 'level the playing field' in S&I.

Fine, I have no problem with nullsec stations being opened up ( just with nullsec *always* having to be better for every area) to allow more slots etc...in return how about giving hisec and WH's moon goo? That'll level the manufacturing capabilities of all the areas in terms of materials available. Simply have moons in hisec less profitable as with the other materials. of course the moons in WH should then be super profitable.

It was my understanding that having less mexallon in null and no moon goo in hi was intended to increase player and goods mobility. Buffing null industry (not simply opening it up on an even basis) would surely go against this as null has everything available locally where the other areas do not, setting aside the obvious retorts about how hard it is to acquire resources in null. The point is that null will be the only self contained area capable of producing everything in game. To level the playing field every area would have to have everything accessible.

The game should either keep the principle of player and goods mobility which I would prefer, more people moving around means more interaction. Different security areas being better (or the only) option for certain goods or services makes for a more diverse setting.

Otherwise level the playing field by making everything available everywhere, with amounts available and effort required to gather those amounts being scaled based upon security area. This would be the only way to argue that risk vs reward is truly in play.

Somebody a while back pointed out that they wanted to do S&I in null rather than use the current hisec alt. If this was a case of wanting to do S&I as something else to do in the game then what is the issue with having a hisec alt to do this? The drive to move S&I into null is for ease of production and improved profit in nullsec otherwise why push so hard for the change?

The strength of Eve as a game is the diversity of playstyles and areas, a push to 'encourage' players to move to null as they progress is artificial and stifling in my opinion.. I would argue that more and stronger differences between the security areas would be much better.



So you are saying that industry should be possible in hisec, but just less profitable than in null?

Which is pretty much the whole point of these changes.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1587 - 2014-04-23 11:11:36 UTC
I agree with the changes in S&I, always have. I am fine with null being viable for S&I too, never said anything otherwise and I actually thought it already was. My view and firm belief is that the game would benefit from the areas of space having different focus and resources to promote interaction between them and give players greater choice. I questioned *why* null should have the best of everything (and that isn't to say I am assuming these changes in summer will provide that).

I'm pretty much consistent in all of my posts in the various threads that more choice is a good thing, player mobility is an even better thing, and changes to the game that promote wither and or both of these are very definitely good things.

The casual player base use hisec because it suits the amount of time they can dedicate to the game. The activities they perform are not exclusive in the sense that anybody in hisec can do them. The hisec player has no advantage over the losec or nullsec player here as those from other areas can more likely afford an alt in hisec to compete with the dedicated hisec players (what with the higher reward that comes from living in lower sec regions).

Hisec should have industry as its focus, this makes sense as stability breeds business. losec should be better for moon mining and reactions maybe, null for raw resource amounts, ratting, exploration (to a degree) and WH's for gas and T3. This would give people more choice about where they play, more reason to move system to system, better rewards for actually interacting with more systems (or people from them). A player group with fingers in all regions would have the most advantages by virtue of being divers rather than by heavily controlling a large region of on security level. If you truly want a level playing field then make all resources available in all areas but to varying degrees to maintain a good reaason to have a presence in each region.

I object to one area of the player base being defined as second class or somehow worse players because they don't live in null. In the risk vs reward scenario the hisec traders who are making billions are maximising the risk reward balance in their favour and doing so in a way that *anyone* can compete if they take the time to build their capital. The condesnding view and patronization of those who choose to play in hisec is only bad for the game as it will turn people off to Eve. Existing players may well leave (yet to be seen but anecdotally likely), new players will be put off.

As for who plays the game better how can that be measured? By PvP skills? How can they be compared to station trader skills? Or exploration skills? Or how do you define how well a player does in Eve who's goal is to plex their account and not pay subscription themselves?

For a full and vibrant game economy every area should have an edge in something, a reason to exist and be frequented.

If we are going to open up S&I in null beacause it isn't viable there, then we should open up moon goo and gas in hisec, moon goo in WH's too at the appropriate reward to risk level. That will truly level the paying field. Otherwise the clear and meaningful differences between the security regions should be maintained. and enhanced to encourage players to move, to train for new skills, to try new careers.
King Fu Hostile
Shiva Furnace
#1588 - 2014-04-23 11:22:57 UTC
Hisec has the edge over every other area- safety.

Your point seems to be that it's ok for people being forced to hisec, but it's somehow wrong for making industry viable outside hisec.

There are currently no financial rewards for living in lower security regions.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1589 - 2014-04-23 12:08:49 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Hisec has the edge over every other area- safety.

Your point seems to be that it's ok for people being forced to hisec, but it's somehow wrong for making industry viable outside hisec.

There are currently no financial rewards for living in lower security regions.


I said the opposite, that people should have incentive to use *every* region for different reasons. I specifically stated I was fine for industry to made viable in null as I already thought it was. I also always argue against players being forced into anything whether by means of restrictions or economic coercion .

In my view a player or group of players who can operate in many regions should have an advantage over players or groups who are concentrated into one region only. Co-operation should bring rewards alongside diverse capabilities.

To be clear my home is in hi sec for convenience and safety there is a matter of using cheap fits and carrying low value of goods, otherwise you must take the correct precautions to avoid being killed. That is simply a case of adapting to the area you live in and applies to any region of space. I am also optimizing my activities to provide me with an income to support future ventures. Again this applies in any region, just with different activities being more or less profitable. I could choose to rent a moon or system in null for billions which by definition means the return on investment must be billions more to be a viable proposition. However I currently prefer my hisec/losec activities but in all likelihood I'll migrate to WH's at some point.

I have no prejudice for or against any area in space, I want *all* regions to be mutually viable for different reasons.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1590 - 2014-04-23 13:16:08 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:


You give Aryth too much credit. The goon financiers may be diabolical, even evil. But even they aren't that powerful.


The greatest trick the devil played was to convince people he did not exist.


You give Aryth too much credit. He's too ****ing lazy to architect much of anything; there's a reason why I do the majority of the finance work.


He says this because all of us were doing all the work all the years previous. So very true though.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#1591 - 2014-04-23 13:23:35 UTC
So, when do T2 BPOs get removed from the game, so that Invention will finally be the only way to make any T2 ship or module?
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1592 - 2014-04-23 13:23:44 UTC
This is just a ide so dont shoot. Make most of 0.4 sec in to a part of hi sec with 3 more sec delay on concord response time contra 0.5 sec,this will hopfully genarate more acces points to low sec and shorten the way to 0 sec,this migth be good for all in 0 sec but bring more risk to,and low sec start at 0.3 sec means less sec loss for ganking PvP,ther will still be plenty of low sec systems.and reward vs risk will be a bit better going from hi sec to 0.3 sec.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1593 - 2014-04-23 13:26:34 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Anders, i made a picture to illustrate what the current situation is like, and why the slots thing should provide some enjoyment to new, more players, by providing infinite research slots.

http://i.imgur.com/0M5IRDK.jpg


Welcome to Eve.

Also, more DevBlogs!

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1594 - 2014-04-23 13:53:32 UTC
CCP has steadily been removing ISK sinks by making more items player built like POS structures and fuel.

Looking at the blog's entirety, it feels to me like CCP is looking to bring back ISK sinks with these changes. Cost scaling for S&I slots is almost surely going to increase costs, draining ISK.

BPOs in POSes is almost surely going to cause some loss, meaning BPO re-purchase, which is another major ISK sink.



Next steps.... remove the "named" rat drops as has already been done for M0, perhaps replaced with more salvage that is needed for manufacture of m1-m4. Make all BPOs M1-5 player inventible. And all items M0-5 player manufactured.

Think of all the extra slot rentals of people trying to invent M4 and M5 (T2) BPOs. Think of all the extra manufacturing runs as players manufacture all mods used in the game. That's a lot more ISK drain!
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#1595 - 2014-04-23 14:12:59 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
CCP has steadily been removing ISK sinks by making more items player built like POS structures and fuel.

Looking at the blog's entirety, it feels to me like CCP is looking to bring back ISK sinks with these changes. Cost scaling for S&I slots is almost surely going to increase costs, draining ISK.

BPOs in POSes is almost surely going to cause some loss, meaning BPO re-purchase, which is another major ISK sink.



Next steps.... remove the "named" rat drops as has already been done for M0, perhaps replaced with more salvage that is needed for manufacture of m1-m4. Make all BPOs M1-5 player inventible. And all items M0-5 player manufactured.

Think of all the extra slot rentals of people trying to invent M4 and M5 (T2) BPOs. Think of all the extra manufacturing runs as players manufacture all mods used in the game. That's a lot more ISK drain!


Very true, but I can't see anyone wanting to build meta 1-3 items. the ability to build meta 4's would be interesting, but would confirm that looting rats (with the exception of faction, officer, and overseer wrecks) is even more a waste of time.
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1596 - 2014-04-23 15:29:18 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
CCP has steadily been removing ISK sinks by making more items player built like POS structures and fuel.

Looking at the blog's entirety, it feels to me like CCP is looking to bring back ISK sinks with these changes. Cost scaling for S&I slots is almost surely going to increase costs, draining ISK.

BPOs in POSes is almost surely going to cause some loss, meaning BPO re-purchase, which is another major ISK sink.


I too like to speculate. Roll

Do you know how many high sec stations there are?

Domain has 304
Sing Laison 204
The Citadel 371
Everyshore 122
Verge Vendor 99
Derelik 49
Genesis 96

That partial list show 1,245 stations. Do all of them have slots? No, but the point is there are ALOT of stations in HS and so the price increase due to slot usage can be mitigated by simply finding a less popular system.

Plus this removes a potential barrier...a barrier that people used to overcome via setting up POS which are not costless.

So the impact of this kind of change is not so clear cut, IMO.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1597 - 2014-04-23 15:33:26 UTC
I'm guessing that POS bonuses changing will improve the POS speed for copying and production to offset the increased cost of running one compared to just using stations...unless this is a cunning plan to stop people using POS's whilst the code is replaced. I look forward to playing around with a POS though...even if I just tear it down after a month it'll be worth the learning,
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1598 - 2014-04-23 15:50:22 UTC
How will your (modified) personal standing with a npc station be tight into future refining ?

At the moment npc corporations will stop taxing your refinery use entirely at 6.67+ standings

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1599 - 2014-04-23 15:51:29 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
So, when do T2 BPOs get removed from the game, so that Invention will finally be the only way to make any T2 ship or module?


Why do they need to be removed? Before you answer that, read the pages and pages and pages (x10^eleventy-one) of stuff Akita T has posted over the years explaining why they don't need to be.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1600 - 2014-04-23 15:54:30 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
CCP has steadily been removing ISK sinks by making more items player built like POS structures and fuel.

Looking at the blog's entirety, it feels to me like CCP is looking to bring back ISK sinks with these changes. Cost scaling for S&I slots is almost surely going to increase costs, draining ISK.

BPOs in POSes is almost surely going to cause some loss, meaning BPO re-purchase, which is another major ISK sink.


I too like to speculate. Roll

Do you know how many high sec stations there are?

Domain has 304
Sing Laison 204
The Citadel 371
Everyshore 122
Verge Vendor 99
Derelik 49
Genesis 96

That partial list show 1,245 stations. Do all of them have slots? No, but the point is there are ALOT of stations in HS and so the price increase due to slot usage can be mitigated by simply finding a less popular system.

Plus this removes a potential barrier...a barrier that people used to overcome via setting up POS which are not costless.

So the impact of this kind of change is not so clear cut, IMO.


Ummm...do all of them have slots....no.....bit of an understatement.
How about you do an analysis of how many high sec systems have manufacturing, or even more importantly, copy, ME, PE, and invention slots.

When all the dev blogs are released, and when the massive, massive advantage to null sec refining is factored in, high sec manufacturing will be dead. One of the chief architects of these changes openly stated that "some" high sec manufacturing will be completely unprofitable after these changes, and that subs will drop.

And oh, this is BEFORE T2 invention in high sec gets killed in the fall.