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Artificial Intelligence in EVE
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Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#1 - 2014-04-23 06:57:20 UTC
I will start with a question. Is EVE portraying AI reasonably accurately for the futuristic culture it is in?

Seeing advances in AI today, whether in software simulations or with hardware, can we say whether people with spaceships, stargates and capsuleers are rivalled by AI? Those drones people fight, should they be equivalent to a capsuleer - even one with augmentations basically hardwiring them to their ship- or should the drones precisely and accurately blow you out of your ride?

How much of a capsuleers ride has to be AI as well to allow the reaction time necessary to fight machines? AI today is capable of driving simulation vehicles at an equivalent 250mph down a road bordered with fences and maintain accurately a distance of 1/10 th of an inch from the edge fence while navigating bumps! Surely space AI is capable of more.

Any discussion of this is appreciated, and if you can refer me to EVE stories of AI, even better!
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#2 - 2014-04-23 07:00:26 UTC
wut
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#3 - 2014-04-23 07:05:39 UTC
I think the Lore portrays the introduction of capsuleer technology as being such a leap forward that a sinlge capsuleer can take out hundreds to thousands of non-capsuleer based ships if they fought against them.

As a result, I don't see how drones or other tech would be able to match the capabilities of a single capsuleer.

Additionally, from a game design perspective, constantly losing to npc players in whatever form wouldn't be much fun.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-04-23 07:05:45 UTC
AI today is all about processing speed and calculations. The human brain, from an engineering point of view, is a receiver.
Insisting on treating the human brain as a computer is all part of the horrifying evolutionary process whereby machines will not become equal or superior to us, but will meet us half way.
Eve cluster technology is 20 millennia in the future, after a complete collapse of existing science and culture and using materials unknown to us.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#5 - 2014-04-23 07:07:13 UTC
Are you asking why a game set thousands of years in the future isn't using real-world technology from thousands of years in the future?
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-04-23 07:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Aurilien
If I recall my lore correctly... The true AI's in the EVE universe are insane. Rogue drones. The chronicles depict them as unbelievably mad. Sickeningly mad, in fact. No one has been willing to touch the tech since.

Also, this probably belongs in EVE Fiction...

Edit: Also, the fact that they are insane would be why their combat capability is limited, they don't really seem to have any clear idea of what they are planning to do from moment to moment, from what I recall of the chronicles.
Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#7 - 2014-04-23 07:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkarth Tlakotani
I'm asking if the portrayal strikes you as reasonable considering that today's primitive AI can apparently execute high speed maneuvers that are impossible for any human that I know of. The technology of the future will change, but the environment will be the same. Comparisons with the environment give us a notion of the development of tech.

For instance in Dust 514 the light logi vehicle is highly maneuverable, but still isn't being driven at speeds close to 250 mph, nor is it a terrifically precise vehicle with a human clone driver. You'd think portrayal of supermen in an environment would entail more than first person shooter Duke Nukem play.

So, fighting drones might be iffy were they depicted as true machines instead of targets?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#8 - 2014-04-23 07:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
I'm asking if the portrayal strikes you as reasonable ...

Despite rumours/rumors to the contrary, EvE is not real. It's just a game.

Hell i'd be happy if my drones followed my own commands without worrying about the behaviour of npc ones. They're all a bit rogue if you ask me.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-04-23 07:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
So, basically, you want to know if drones should be able to shoot (and possibly kill) an object 5 - 10 meters in diameter, embedded into a fully functional (approx.) 1 kilometer long and maybe 200 meters wide colossus made of more than a hundred million tons of tritanium, armored with several layers of 800mm thick reinforced steel plates and covered in fully functional energy shields fueled my an antimatter reactor... not to speak of all the weapons that try to kill the drone while it is attacking that afore mentioned colossus...

If that's what you are asking, then lets just say no. Straight

It wouldn't hurt tho if EVE's NPC AI were a little bit smarter. [Mission triggers... ieugh]

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#10 - 2014-04-23 07:30:20 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
So, basically, you want to know if drones should be able to shoot (and possibly kill) an object 5 - 10 meters in diameter, embedded into a fully functional (approx.) 1 kilometer long and maybe 200 meters wide colossus made of more than a hundred million tons of tritanium, armored with several layers of 800mm thick reinforced steel plates and covered in fully functional energy shields fueled my an antimatter reactor... not to speak of all the weapons that try to kill the drone while it is attacking that afore mentioned colossus...

If that's what you are asking, then lets just say no. Straight

It wouldn't hurt tho if EVE's NPC AI were a little bit smarter. [Mission triggers... ieugh]



No, actually I quoted Dust 514 rather than space combat.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-04-23 07:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Aurilien
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
So, basically, you want to know if drones should be able to shoot (and possibly kill) an object 5 - 10 meters in diameter, embedded into a fully functional (approx.) 1 kilometer long and maybe 200 meters wide colossus made of more than a hundred million tons of tritanium, armored with several layers of 800mm thick reinforced steel plates and covered in fully functional energy shields fueled my an antimatter reactor... not to speak of all the weapons that try to kill the drone while it is attacking that afore mentioned colossus...

If that's what you are asking, then lets just say no. Straight

It wouldn't hurt tho if EVE's NPC AI were a little bit smarter. [Mission triggers... ieugh]



No, actually I quoted Dust 514 rather than space combat.



An EVE chronicle about rogue drones. Should give you an idea of what they are supposed to be like. It's not long.

http://community.eveonline.com/backstory/chronicles/postnatal/
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#12 - 2014-04-23 07:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
I'm asking if the portrayal strikes you as reasonable considering that today's primitive AI can apparently execute high speed maneuvers that are impossible for any human that I know of. The technology of the future will change, but the environment will be the same. Comparisons with the environment give us a notion of the development of tech.

For instance in Dust 514 the light logi vehicle is highly maneuverable, but still isn't being driven at speeds close to 250 mph, nor is it a terrifically precise vehicle with a human clone driver. You'd think portrayal of supermen in an environment would entail more than first person shooter Duke Nukem play.

So, fighting drones might be iffy were they depicted as true machines instead of targets?


The problem with your line of thinking is that the relationship between the two is actually the reverse of what you think it is.

Humans do not have particularly quick reaction times in relation to a simple machine, built for such a purpose.

But the human brain is a supercomputer. We just don't use anywhere near all of it. A capsuleer does, and not only that, their ship is hooked into their brain to the point where it's more than just an extension of themselves, it's an extension of their thoughts. Little is faster than thought. (your mileage may vary)

The Rogue Drones, on the other hand, have evolved sentience that is restricted largely by their numbers. A hive mind.

They're bugs. They behave in a fashion that is rather more similar to a biological being due to their "evolving" past the state of a simple machine that takes input and returns output.

So their actions in combat are more analogous to traditional biological beings than to a machine, while conversely a capsuleer fights in a manner that is far more analogous to a machine than a living being.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2014-04-23 07:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Technological progression is not a straight, deterministic path.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#14 - 2014-04-23 07:47:39 UTC
If AI would be in any way "reasonable" NPCs wouldn't just idle while you explode their comrades. They would also apply "enemy of my enemy is not my enemy AT THIS VERY MOMENT" way of "reasoning" so when you show up in somebody's mission pocket in a frig AI wouldn't switch all its hate towards you, especially not when you start to help them to explode that mean mission runner.

Drones are just mobile sentry guns not much of an AI going on there, more like simple event driven systems specialized in their respective fields (with word "guns" being broadly used for combat, ewar, RR and industry tools).

Invalid signature format
Solecist Project
#15 - 2014-04-23 07:52:04 UTC
*sips tea*

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Valkarth Tlakotani
Confederation Navy
#16 - 2014-04-23 07:55:52 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
If AI would be in any way "reasonable" NPCs wouldn't just idle while you explode their comrades. They would also apply "enemy of my enemy is not my enemy AT THIS VERY MOMENT" way of "reasoning" so when you show up in somebody's mission pocket in a frig AI wouldn't switch all its hate towards you, especially not when you start to help them to explode that mean mission runner.

Drones are just mobile sentry guns not much of an AI going on there, more like simple event driven systems specialized in their respective fields (with word "guns" being broadly used for combat, ewar, RR and industry tools).



Good points.
Concord AI is actually on par with what I am thinking (meta game wise). As for capsuleers being as precise and accurate as AI, I had assumed that either they were just that, or AI augmented. My problem is with Dust bunnies being armored thugs with clones. Though it's not inconceivable the dust clones are a lower grade made by the corporations and Empires as expendable unaugmented slaves.

As for friendly drones, yes the AI should be better.
Solecist Project
#17 - 2014-04-23 08:01:07 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
I'm asking if the portrayal strikes you as reasonable ...

Despite rumours/rumors to the contrary, EvE is not real. It's just a game.

Hell i'd be happy if my drones followed my own commands without worrying about the behaviour of npc ones. They're all a bit rogue if you ask me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Wesley Otsdarva
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-04-23 08:03:43 UTC
Sleepers. That is all.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#19 - 2014-04-23 08:04:24 UTC
Valkarth Tlakotani wrote:
My problem is with Dust bunnies being armored thugs with clones. Though it's not inconceivable the dust clones are a lower grade made by the corporations and Empires as expendable unaugmented slaves.


Clone Soldiers receive next to none of the benefits of the technology. Just the immortality and the associated craziness.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#20 - 2014-04-23 08:11:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Clone Soldiers receive next to none of the benefits of the technology. Just the immortality and the associated craziness.


Which is plenty enough considering that they are just cannon fodder created for our amusement (or rather that was the plan that failed miserably).

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