These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Get rid of Tiers
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#61 - 2011-12-01 23:12:07 UTC
Bumping this thread for renewed discussion now that Crucible is out and some of the balanced problems have been addressed.

I still think the tiering system needs looked at. One of the great advantages would be making t1 ships viable choices in fleet warfare, removing some of the barrier to entry (primarily cost, but also skill time) that keeps people out of low/null.

Overhaul Dscan!
Doddy
Excidium.
#62 - 2011-12-01 23:23:12 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Oxeu wrote:
Ehe I don't know about you, but I use tier 1 BC/BS a lot for allt he right reasons because each ship is good at doing something. (granted ferox is meh)

So I see no sense in your reasoning.



You see no sense in making the dozens of frigates that have zero use because of terrible slot layouts, a direct result of the tier system, actually useful?


So whats your plan, nerf higher tier frigates to the level of the cheap ones so they are useless for anyone but noobs or make the lower tier ones so expensive new players have to stay in their noob ships for days and quit the game in frustration?

Or with cruisers you going to buff the obviously weak because its low tier blackbird so its tier three or nerf the obviously powerful cos its high tier omen (lol) so its tier one?

Or with BS, i suppose you think geddons, dominixes and scorpions need buffed or do you want to nerf those terribly op rokhs and hyperions.

The tier system is great, it allows for more freedom of choice. Ships that are fail or op are that way because of lol ccp, nothing to do with tiering.

Tier 2 bcs are op and always have been, but that is the only place (don't even try to say mining/hauling cruisers) where tier one is properly outclassed and even there brutix and prophecy both own in their roles.
Doddy
Excidium.
#63 - 2011-12-01 23:25:09 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Bumping this thread for renewed discussion now that Crucible is out and some of the balanced problems have been addressed.

I still think the tiering system needs looked at. One of the great advantages would be making t1 ships viable choices in fleet warfare, removing some of the barrier to entry (primarily cost, but also skill time) that keeps people out of low/null.


If by t1 you mean tech one you seriously haven't been paying attention. If you mean tier 1 then how is 2 million and a couple days training time at a very early time in your eve career (when you should be learning the game) a serious barrier to entry?
HybridOnslaught
New Eden Outcasts
#64 - 2011-12-01 23:30:44 UTC
tier 1 bc are as much fun to fly as s tier 2 with good skills it can be just as deadly,

one thing that pissed me off abouyt the new bx is teh skills needed are too low they should bring them up a bit bc 4 at min
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#65 - 2011-12-01 23:35:45 UTC
I mean making more of the t1 hulls viable for general combat, as a cheaper alternative to BC's or t2 hulls. As a barrier to entry, I mean that by reducing the cost of pvp ships (by making t1 cruisers and frigates a better option) more people would be willing to participate in pvp. I suppose it's not so much a barrier as it is that losses persuade people that it's not worth participating in. This is part (and only part, I understand t hat) of what makes low/null undesirable. This is the benefit to EVE as a whole of removing tiers; the immediate goal is variety and improved gameplay.

Go back and read the first few pages for a discussion on how to make these cheap hulls more attractive, and what they currently lack.

Overhaul Dscan!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#66 - 2011-12-01 23:38:42 UTC
Doddy wrote:

The tier system is great, it allows for more freedom of choice.


I remember talking to someone at CCP about this exact sentiment. I disagreed with it then, and I disagree with it now. The simple fact of the matter is that the ship tier system means that certain ships will have less HP, less slots, less fittings, less everything. This means that races which have multiple paths to work through are in fact gimped at specific points in the tree.

Basically what people are actually asking for is the freedom of choice - the power to choose a Stabber over a Rupture or a Cyclone over a Hurricane. The ships have roles that they're supposed to fill, and those roles are unnecessarily gimped because the ship happens to be a particular tier.

So no, the freedom of choice comes with the removal of the tier system not its maintenance.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2011-12-01 23:46:08 UTC
Doddy wrote:


The tier system is great, it allows for more freedom of choice. Ships that are fail or op are that way because of lol ccp, nothing to do with tiering.


More freedom of choice? The tier system has resulted in several useless ships that can't fill their intended role because of some decision CCP made when they made eve. Those ships being useless give us less viable options and thus less choices. The idea is not to make all ships the same. Bur rather, make them able to do their intended role.

I'm gonna bring up my favorite example, the T1 tackle frigates, slasher, atron, condor and executioner. All four of these could be perfectly viable tackle frigates for player low on SP or isk. But due to a lack of slots these ships are worse at their intended roles than the combat frigates. A rifter makes a better tackle than a slasher due to it's third mid and two extra lows.

give these frigates a few extra slots, some pg and cpu to fill those slots and that should be enough. Just so they can fit mwd, scram, web and some speed or tanking modules. then leave their weapons as they are, making sure that the combat frigates still have their roles as damage dealers while these have theirs as tacklers.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#68 - 2011-12-01 23:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Giving more freedom of choice is exactly the point. Whens the last time you saw a Prophecy brought to a roam with serious intentions? Or an Omen? Or a Moa?

To be fair, there are balance problems IN ADDITION (not in place of) the issues with tiering- the Maller for example, or the Thorax. A few of these were addressed with Cruicible (like making the thorax more agile) so I thought I'd reopen the discussion.

Overhaul Dscan!
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#69 - 2011-12-02 00:18:01 UTC
This time, the tier denotes more of a role than whether or not the ship is 'better'. Which is how it should be, in my opinion.

Take for example the Naga. Can put blasters on it and it'll wreck things. Can put rails on it and it'll actually make this weapon system not suck horribly. How does it compare to a Drake, though? It doesn't, because the Drake won't die a fiery death if you lob pinecones at it.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2011-12-02 01:28:26 UTC
The tier system is possibly the worst thing about EVE. Get rid of it.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
mkjkgkvk Melkan
Doomheim
#71 - 2011-12-02 02:06:33 UTC
Getting rid of the teir system to add an extra 15+ ships that are currently not flown to the eve universe is probably the best thing CCP could spend their time on...

More variety more tactics more fun dont even need to spend the time designing new ships. Balancing might not go off perfect first time but who cares really. Worthy worthy thread
Alara IonStorm
#72 - 2011-12-02 02:15:21 UTC
mkjkgkvk Melkan wrote:
Getting rid of the teir system to add an extra 15+ ships that are currently not flown to the eve universe is probably the best thing CCP could spend their time on...

More variety more tactics more fun dont even need to spend the time designing new ships. Balancing might not go off perfect first time but who cares really. Worthy worthy thread

This. So much this.
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2011-12-02 03:52:32 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Giving more freedom of choice is exactly the point. Whens the last time you saw a Prophecy brought to a roam with serious intentions? Or an Omen? Or a Moa?

To be fair, there are balance problems IN ADDITION (not in place of) the issues with tiering- the Maller for example, or the Thorax. A few of these were addressed with Cruicible (like making the thorax more agile) so I thought I'd reopen the discussion.


In fairness the Omen can be a very cheap glass cannon. But yes, the majority of ships have been tier restricted and are still stuck with antiquated bonuses that no longer work in today's game environment. The prophecy is my favorite poster child of this. Without a damage bonus on lasers, autocannons become the best option for it at every turn. Rather than forcing a choice between damage and capacitor, it only forces a non choice between some capacitor or more capacitor.
Oylmpia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-12-02 08:58:52 UTC
You can have nice fits in Cyclone too... and as an extra bonus since no one expects anything of it you can surprise some people :)
Salvia Olima
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-12-02 10:13:55 UTC
Tier3 battlecruisers could be called Gunships, or Corvette class could be introduced.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2011-12-02 10:20:17 UTC
The Maller needs a damage bonus. 5% dmg, 5% armor res per level -1 high +1 med. Or 5% assault missile dmg 5% armor res per level. AND some light drones in either case. The ship is incredibly bad with cruiser sized lasers in its current form.

Prophecy needs similar treatment.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2011-12-02 11:04:40 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The Maller needs a damage bonus. 5% dmg, 5% armor res per level -1 high +1 med. Or 5% assault missile dmg 5% armor res per level. AND some light drones in either case. The ship is incredibly bad with cruiser sized lasers in its current form.

Prophecy needs similar treatment.


I would love to see a 5% RoF bonus for HML/HAM on the maller and prophecy instead of the laser cap bonus, but let them keep their turret hardpoints so that AC fits are still possible. Would be interesting to do a similar thing with the punisher, but with rockets and light missiles.
Reaperxvii
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2011-12-02 16:58:09 UTC
I agree the tier system is flawed, Every ship should be able to fill a nich, If saying specializing a frigate will hurt new players, I think your wrong, In the end most new players will end up Specializing in some role, after all they have to to effectively do anything in there first couple months, So by specializing frigates, then cruisers for an individual role will allow new players to follow an exact path and not be confused as to what exactly they should be trying to achieve for what they want, as for the BC's the only ones I can speak of are for the Brutix and Myr, Both of which I found fit certain roles, the brutix mainly being a blaster platform at heart and a myr being a more sturdy but slower ship, Alot of people over look the Command module Bonuses a BC gives in a large fleet, but I think specializing Frigates and then a cruiser to the add on to the skill would be the best thing to do for lower players.

I can also speak for Miners, The procur is a USELESS ship, I completely skipped it and went to the retriever until I got a covetor, and for new player a hulk is just to much money so a covetor does serve A nice role as being a cheap but highly effective mining barge.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#79 - 2011-12-02 16:59:10 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The Maller needs a damage bonus. 5% dmg, 5% armor res per level -1 high +1 med. Or 5% assault missile dmg 5% armor res per level. AND some light drones in either case. The ship is incredibly bad with cruiser sized lasers in its current form.

Prophecy needs similar treatment.


I would love to see a 5% RoF bonus for HML/HAM on the maller and prophecy instead of the laser cap bonus, but let them keep their turret hardpoints so that AC fits are still possible. Would be interesting to do a similar thing with the punisher, but with rockets and light missiles.


So, Khanid ships.
Reaperxvii
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-12-02 17:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaperxvii
I do also think though that they should balance out the BC's so that instead of only 2 or 3 being used when there are 12 available now.