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Easy and effective solution for belts being mined out

Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-04-20 20:01:12 UTC
Issue: Throughout the majority of highsec, asteroid belts everywhere are getting thoroughly mined out on a daily basis, leaving entire systems or even sections of space with no usable asteroid belts. I won't say it's a problem, that is a matter of opinion.

This may have happened somewhat long ago but hasn't been a widespread phenomenon except for the past year or two. The reason is obvious: population expansion. The ore in highsec belts pretty accurately reflects the kind of minerals most commonly used and destroyed in EVE. More people means more demand for minerals, means a higher percentage of the minerals get mined. But I digress.

Solution: If you agree that this is a problem, then I offer to the EVE community (and to CCP) a simple and effective solution that will make the problem completely evaporate with no significant backlash to the economy other than that mineral prices will fluctuate slightly.

The solution is to put lots more asteroids in the belts but spread them out over a much greater distance. As many of you are already aware, the lower the system security status, the larger the asteroids, and this is especially true for high-end asteroids such as veldspar, which can spawn at behemoth sizes in 0.5 and 0.6 systems. If the asteroids were spaced far enough apart, then in 1.0 systems with lots of tiny veldspars, a mining barge would struggle to drift fast enough through the belt to encounter asteroids as fast as it mined them up. This would give the mining advantage to Ventures in the top security systems, and would ensure newer players always have somewhere to mine. In the lower end of highsec, barges would have no trouble moving fast enough to keep mining at a constant rate, but they may experience difficulty in mining mexallon and isogen ores at a constant rate, as these are much smaller in those systems. This will have a secondary effect in cheapening veldspar and scordite somewhat and decreasing the supply for kernite and omber. It will help to encourage mining outside of highsec without really pressuring players to do so.

I support this solution and do believe it would have a positive impact on mining in highsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2 - 2014-04-20 21:02:08 UTC
Or remove all static belts and move them to irregularly spawning anomalies. Then they will spawn spread over the day instead of just during downtime. Also, this will allow CCP to use the more complex anomaly dungeon scripting over the more simple static belt scripting.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-04-20 21:08:12 UTC
^ I also support this solution, and I think EVE would benefit from having both in-game.

I have a hypothesis that if ore anomalies requiring scan probes had superior ores to those in belts and anything not requiring probes, that botters would go for the lower yield, easier to reach asteroids while active miners (especially short-term) would find it easy to just probe down a site and mine at a higher rate than the bots do.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#4 - 2014-04-21 04:39:40 UTC
I have a couple of issues regarding anomalies vs belts:

my first issue with anomaly based belts is that you would want to have the same number of anomalies as belts, with, say a quarter of the ore, and a 6hr lifespan; otherwise gankers will have much easier time of finding targets - I think suicide ganking is in about the right place atm, and target finding, at least, does not need to be made any easier.

Second issue is that all those players who've put in the work of setting up various BM's in the belts so they don't have to slowboat the 15km or whatever would be getting shafted. I guess that's EVE, but I still don't like it; it rewards laziness (albeit passively).

Third issue is that normal belts are then as easy to mine from as the supposedly rarer grav site anoms, by forcing miners to check their scanner, you stop rewarding those who did so anyway, thus again - passively rewarding laziness (as those miners who'd never have thought to check for ore sites suddenly have one thrown in their faces)

CCP can already spawn new entities on a grid - why can they not just spawn new rocks in every, say 2 hrs?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-04-21 05:28:22 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Or remove all static belts and move them to irregularly spawning anomalies. Then they will spawn spread over the day instead of just during downtime. Also, this will allow CCP to use the more complex anomaly dungeon scripting over the more simple static belt scripting.


I think this would be the easiest "solution". However, I'm not entirely convinced that a limited number of low end asteroids existing is a problem. Rather, I think the reason CCP hasn't touched asteroid spawn rates is because they are concerned with flooding the market with low end minerals more then it already is. That said, if we kept current mineral supply roughly the same and simply transitioned from asteroid belts which can be mined out to anomalies that despawn when empty, it could be considered an improvement I suppose. At least it would be less of a tease to warp to an anom and actually have rocks there to mine.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-04-21 05:51:00 UTC
If the anomalies you have to scan down are chock full of the +5% and +10% ores but there's an abundance of basic ore in the regular belts, then lazy people can mine the basic stuff and people who take the time to probe get to reap the benefits. That also puts targets in the belts, which helps to draw gankers away from the anomalies. They're less likely to bother searching there if the easiest prey is found in basic belts anyway.

Also, with my suggestion of spreading the ore out, miners could still make bookmarks in belts--in 0.5 and 0.6 systems, they could use bookmarks to land their barge in a juicy spot next to a few rather large veldspar or scordite asteroids. Now if they expect to bookmark a rich kernite spot, they might as well go search in lowsec. I think that's a good thing. I'm opposed to rewarding laziness. I think it's okay or even good for mining to allow laziness, but anyone who puts effort into improving their mining operation should benefit from it.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dave Stark
#7 - 2014-04-21 06:15:35 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The solution is to put lots more asteroids in the belts but spread them out over a much greater distance.


they did, they put those extra asteroids in the next system.

until every system in high sec is mined out on a daily basis, this isn't a problem in the slightest. it's just the whining of lazy folk.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-04-21 06:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Dave Stark wrote:
until every system in high sec is mined out on a daily basis, this isn't a problem in the slightest. it's just the whining of lazy folk.
It won't be long if the amount of available minerals doesn't change. Do you understand how population growth ties in to mining?

I've lost track of how many times I've heard of an economist seeing a country half full and declaring that it'll be a long time before it is full. And then the country is overpopulated in about 50 years. Well if you look at the EVE population growth chart, you may notice that it grows exponentially similar to real-world population growth.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dave Stark
#9 - 2014-04-21 06:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
until every system in high sec is mined out on a daily basis, this isn't a problem in the slightest. it's just the whining of lazy folk.
It won't be long if the amount of available minerals doesn't change. Do you understand how population growth ties in to mining?

I've lost track of how many times I've heard of an economist seeing a country half full and declaring that it'll be a long time before it is full. And then the country is overpopulated in about 50 years. Well if you look at the EVE population growth chart, you may notice that it grows exponentially similar to real-world population growth.


note when i said "until".

i'm aware it might be a problem some day, but that's not even remotely close to soon. not to mention if high sec runs out of asteroids to mine; i'm sure there will be plenty left in low/null to mine. hell, null sec anomalies can be forced to spawn by emptying it's predecessor. how cool is that?

here's how much of a problem it isn't; 2 jumps from jita, 3.5 hrs before dt, asteroids in the first belt i warped to.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#10 - 2014-04-21 07:12:20 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Or remove all static belts and move them to irregularly spawning anomalies. Then they will spawn spread over the day instead of just during downtime. Also, this will allow CCP to use the more complex anomaly dungeon scripting over the more simple static belt scripting.





Please yes!!!!!
Dave Stark
#11 - 2014-04-21 07:43:20 UTC
also this would hurt new players.

here's how;

to maintain the current levels of ore in systems, but increase the frequency of respawns belts would end up being smaller but appear more frequently.

I, the seasoned veteran, turn up with my fleet of 30 miners and an orca, and strip new bite size belt in 30 seconds with my max skilled pilots and their orca buddy.
timmy, the little newbie, turns up in his venture and gets about 2 cycles of ore before there's nothing left and he has to wait however long it is for the next belt.

it's a frequent complaint of ice miners, however ice is designed to be limited in high sec so we can ignore their complaints. the same complaints with regular ore would not be dismissed so easily.
with the bigger, more infrequent spawn system that we have now new players get a chance to get some ore, as i can't mine out every belt in a 40 belt system within 30 mins of downtime.... but i probably could cycle every anom within 30 mins of it spawning if the spawns were staggered.

while i appreciate that the anomaly thing is cool, being cool doesn't outweigh the negatives in this particular case.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-04-21 16:36:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I, the seasoned veteran, turn up with my fleet of 30 miners and an orca, and strip new bite size belt in 30 seconds with my max skilled pilots and their orca buddy.
timmy, the little newbie, turns up in his venture and gets about 2 cycles of ore before there's nothing left and he has to wait however long it is for the next belt.
Both the veteran annd the newbie will spend the same amount of time waiting for a new belt to spawn. It'll still be a lot easier for a newbie to find an ore pocket because freshly spawned ones will take time for veterans to find them and mine them out. Searches for ore will always reveal some here and there if it's always spawning. At current, when most people get on, the miners have already had more than 12 hours to find all of them and mine them out.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dave Stark
#13 - 2014-04-21 17:22:50 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Both the veteran annd the newbie will spend the same amount of time waiting for a new belt to spawn. It'll still be a lot easier for a newbie to find an ore pocket because freshly spawned ones will take time for veterans to find them and mine them out. Searches for ore will always reveal some here and there if it's always spawning. At current, when most people get on, the miners have already had more than 12 hours to find all of them and mine them out.


you can tell this is a TEST post.
it makes close to 0 sense and doesn't address anything they quoted.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#14 - 2014-04-21 17:25:06 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Or remove all static belts and move them to irregularly spawning anomalies. Then they will spawn spread over the day instead of just during downtime. Also, this will allow CCP to use the more complex anomaly dungeon scripting over the more simple static belt scripting.


+1 and it would make life harder for bot-miners.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Dave Stark
#15 - 2014-04-21 17:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Or remove all static belts and move them to irregularly spawning anomalies. Then they will spawn spread over the day instead of just during downtime. Also, this will allow CCP to use the more complex anomaly dungeon scripting over the more simple static belt scripting.


+1 and it would make life harder for bot-miners.


it really wouldn't, look at ice mining
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2014-04-21 17:40:57 UTC
Obviously, if every high sec belt is being mined out every day, then CCP needs to spawn a little less highsec ore... And some people need to relocate.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

coca cola king
#17 - 2014-04-21 17:47:52 UTC
More ganking = less mining = more roid. Problem solved!

Dinsdale Pirannha for [u]CSM[/u]. Ripard Teg for [u]CEO[/u] of [u]CCP[/u]. Grrrr [u]Goon[/u].

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-04-21 19:53:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
you can tell this is a TEST post.
it makes close to 0 sense and doesn't address anything they quoted.
Shameless and baseless poo-flinging. My post addressed what you said. I thought it was pretty clear, but if you needed me to clarify anything, you could have just said so. There is no need to generalize me because of my alliance.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dave Stark
#19 - 2014-04-21 20:54:56 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you can tell this is a TEST post.
it makes close to 0 sense and doesn't address anything they quoted.
Shameless and baseless poo-flinging. My post addressed what you said. I thought it was pretty clear, but if you needed me to clarify anything, you could have just said so. There is no need to generalize me because of my alliance.


it didn't, or i'd have given it a proper reply.