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Looking for advice concerning bonds and credibility
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Alex Brusca
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-04-20 20:33:50 UTC
After years of playing Eve I recently started dabbling in trade and am kicking myself for not doing so sooner! I had assumptions about complicated calculations and tedious +/- 0.01 ISK wars in trade hubs that kept me away. However, I fell into an area that is manageable, easy enough for me, and has great returns; if only this had happened years ago! I’m putting my profits right back into my venture and growing. However, my limited liquid ISK means I’m growing slowly.

I’d like to speed things up by creating a bond. I’m unknown in the community, so there will obviously be suspicions.

I’d like to run a bond for something in the neighborhood of 2.5 – 5 billion ISK uncollateralized over 90 days and promise returns in the 10-15% range. Is this reasonable for a first timer or am I overreaching? Other than a well written proposal, is there anything else I can do for credibility?

I can put up collateral. I would prefer not to because the end goal is to build credibility for future ventures that I may not have enough available assets to hold as collateral. Is this reasonable?

If it matters – this character is an alt. I would like to have this character be my main for current and future forum purposes. I want to keep the identity of my in game main character(s) secret because the business involves moving assets thru high sec, and I want to avoid drawing attention.

Any constructive feedback or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Abidal Trekt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-04-20 20:57:47 UTC
I've done two bonds now, the second was much easier to sell than the first. I'd recommend keeping your number low (1bn) and the interest high (15%), and consider a shorter period like 30 days.
Bayaz Sharvas
Plug My Hole
#3 - 2014-04-20 21:07:05 UTC
My suggestion is to maybe start with a 500m to 1b bond at 15% for around 30 days. You could also do a bond with partial collateral with lower interest
Investor Joe
Litla Sundlaugin
#4 - 2014-04-20 21:53:06 UTC
Very few people are gonna invest billions into a char with 2 forum posts and 1 year noob corp history that admits to being an alt.

You have no risk of reputation loss if you don't pay it back so there is very little incentive for you to pay it back. Unless you do a really convincing write up in your loan thread i just don't see it happening unless someone like I LIKE IT comes along and loans you.
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-04-21 00:33:22 UTC
This is something I've never dabbled in, but is there a chat channel in game that is for investors and people looking for loans?

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.
Bayaz Sharvas
Plug My Hole
#6 - 2014-04-21 02:20:43 UTC
Well if you are in need of a loan people normally post on the MD and investors will either loan you money or laugh at you. If you don't know what to write if your looking for a loan, read past posts from other people and use there format for your post.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#7 - 2014-04-21 06:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
A link to MD Borrowers and Trustees – A Resource for Investors. A list where you could pick up how some people got started in the business.

Ow, its maintained on the Wiki nowadays, but it needs updating for sure ;)...

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Cavalira
Habemus
#8 - 2014-04-21 08:27:27 UTC
Keeping your main secret is a pretty **** move to gain trust
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#9 - 2014-04-21 08:45:58 UTC
Cavalira wrote:
Keeping your main secret is a pretty **** move to gain trust


As is explicitly saying you want to build trust, it's kind of a given if you intend to borrow in the future, but saying it seems like you're trying too hard. Or maybe not saying so is deceptive? What?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#10 - 2014-04-21 09:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Cavalira wrote:
Keeping your main secret is a pretty **** move to gain trust


As is explicitly saying you want to build trust, it's kind of a given if you intend to borrow in the future, but saying it seems like you're trying too hard. Or maybe not saying so is deceptive? What?


Here's the point of view of an investor who had invested in 55 bonds / IPO so far.

Most things in life are a "give and take" relationship. Both sides want benefits and both sides want to see the other side put in some of itself.

In the OP case, a common case, he wants to reap all the benefits without giving anything back.

Not disclosing main is a major psichological setback: it's not really a "red flag" but shows the mindset of not willing to put anything on the stakes, a "take only" approach.

He did not even offer to post API keys, not even a performance 3rd party site.

Also, the "I want to build trust" immediately makes me link my absolutely evergreen: "The Elusive MD Reputation: an ironic tutorial about starting a successful career in the MD" also known as "Guide: How to grind MD reputation like a pro".

Read it and learn the do and don't about asking money to investors.

Edit: I have posted really a lot, but the above linked post is really one of those I'd save for MD posterity. It's about all of EvE and much of RL trust in a nutshell, following that advice I am now living an enviable life in RL.

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Alex Brusca
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-04-21 10:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Brusca
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
He did not even offer to post API keys, not even a performance 3rd party site.

More details about this please. I would be happy to disclose API and in game main to a trusted individual.



Thanks to those that posted constructive advice. Obviously I was thinking of asking for too much, but that was the point of this thread - to see what was reasonable for getting started.

In the near future I think I will move forward with a 2 billion ISK bond at 15% over 30 days with ~50% collateral. I need to run numbers to make sure I can get desired profits from this and get quotes from a trusted 3rd party to hold collateral.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#12 - 2014-04-21 10:36:18 UTC
Alex Brusca wrote:
Obviously I was thinking of asking for too much, but that was the point of this thread - to see what was reasonable for getting started.


It's not so obvious. In fact the "issue" is not you are asking too much but the approach you are having towards investments.

You seem to want to explore how much you can ask, how much you can pull the rope, before you get told: "STOP".

Whereas this works for small amounts and just for starters, you have also to put yourself in the investors shoes and see: "what am I giving them, besides a future goodwill to pay them back?"

Because a loan is based on hope to see money back in the future, but the value, the relation, the deal, is done and concluded today and investors only have that to judge upon.

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Abidal Trekt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-04-21 17:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Abidal Trekt
Alex Brusca wrote:
In the near future I think I will move forward with a 2 billion ISK bond at 15% over 30 days with ~50% collateral. I need to run numbers to make sure I can get desired profits from this and get quotes from a trusted 3rd party to hold collateral.


Sounds about right! And if you run the numbers and you find you're cutting it close, just do the bond anyway: credibility is currency too!
flakeys
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-04-22 08:20:03 UTC
Mail me with an outline of the idea you had in mind for your venture OP , explaining the what/Where/how AND send the same mail from your main char.


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We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2014-04-22 14:01:56 UTC
Alex Brusca wrote:
I would be happy to disclose API and in game main to a trusted individual.

I've been around over 5 years now. I've posted so much that I'm currently at #26 forum poster. My skills and such are visible for anyone to see.

I've never really understood the desire to remain hidden, except by forum alts that wanted to ship-toast. Being so public hasn't had a noticeable negative effect on me, and has likely benefited me.

The one exception I make is not disclosing a full API, as that could compromise the privacy of my corp members.