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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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stoicfaux
#981 - 2014-04-20 12:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Needs a 3% cpu implant which shares a slot with the cruise missile damage implant (and warp speed implant.) Not enough CPU to fit a MJD in place of the cap booster, so you would need to downgrade the SB as well. Maybe the new faction drone modules will help with the CPU.

And if you don't have Missile Rigging at V to reduce the CPU penalty from the rigs, then you're going to need to make some more compromises.

However the paper DPS is impressive.

[Rattlesnake, Level 4 copy 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Garde II x2
Warden II x2
Hobgoblin II x15

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#982 - 2014-04-20 12:40:09 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus, how is that any different than if you had 5 regular bonused drones? Except these new ones don't die anywhere close to as quickly.



Well it is the morning, so i have a little patience left, probably after a couple of times repeating myself and banging my head against the wall I might give up for today so here goes.

Please pay attention. And try to read to the end before you jump on the most inconsequential part before leaping to completely wrong conclusions as to what is being said Roll

The issue is that for both the Gila and the Rattlesnake in different ways, the drone weapon system is exactly that, an entire system with many checks and balances, plusses and minuses.-It has serious issues, and at some point will need a major rework.- but that is an aside.

Range of control and the fact that drones come in different sizes and abilities, and that these can be switched according to threat, are the pillars that support the system as a weapons platform.

The problem is the 2 main pillars have been disregarded whilst focusing on the new superdrone concept.
The superdrone concept has great potential to be a great addition to the game. But only if the smaller drones beneath the Superdrones are taken into account in the whole interplay of the system. And the battle-space these drones operate in and the control range applicable relates to the drones abilities.

But if you completely remove functionality and abilities of core components of the whole system, the balance is broken, and it will be impossible to know just how good they are,as one will be making continual comparisons with the other missing and changed elements.how can one compare the Gila and its use of wonderful bonused superdrones if you are struggling with losing 3.5 effective light drones and fighting to somehow stay alive.
When you change a core variable, you change only one at a time, or the data is meaningless.

There is also the issue that micromanagement of the lesser drones in the system is significantly more hands on, the unbonused drones (and fewer in the gila) are fragile and weaker, they need more effort to keep alive and are exposed to damage for longer as they do damage less quickly.
If it is necessary to use the MJD for range control then the MJD now takes one well out of drone control range adding to drone micromanagement. All of these issues are annoying an unpleasant rather than fatal, but is making the game more annoying a positive improvement?
This is over and above the more direct impacts that have been detailed en mass over dozens of pages, i know there is a lot to read but that is better than me typing pages for you now. Try to read, I will not do ALL the work for you!

So in short the rattlesnake has become a missile boat. With supporting drones. This is not the dual weapon system ship that we are used to. Whilst one can certainly adapt, the method of making the drones unpleasant to use, is a very poor way to introduce superdrones.

The Gila is severely hampered by the neglect of the entire drone weapon system, there are only 2 possible fits. T2 heavy missiles with precision missiles (if you have those skills) or rapid lights.

So the question is is it a good idea to rebalance a ship by neglecting the core concept of a weapons system being a system by ripping it out and just replacing part with a different mechanic. Or is it better to consider the whole system and doing it properly and not pissing off existing users and making it a pain for new ones?

I do not believe that is either deliberate or intended. The forums are here to give the Devs feedback, they are under considerable pressure to deliver changes, to a tight timescale, we NEED to point out issues when they are seen, to help them do their job for the BENEFIT OF ALL,

Aside from that the resolutions are remarkably simple.

Gila 200% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light drones. To keep approximately the same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake 50% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light and medium drones, keeps same number of effective drones
Rattlesnake either 25km to drone control range to keep same effective drone control range to prevent the new dead area, where drone damage will not be applied. Or drop the new launcher and add to the missile damage bonus,to keep it the same as originally suggested.

The idea is that the lesser drones are a valid part of the weapons system and deserve just as much attention if balance is to achieved, and that the whole battlespace needs to be considered in order not to create accidental deadspots that add nothing but annoyance to the game.

(If CCP Rise wanted to buff the ship some more, this could be also achieved by an additional high slot, his choice, naturally would effect the ability to fit other things too.) The other solutions would be just as effective without buffing anything.


NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)

The forum thread is so long because as in the case where one sees a nail on the floor, one can either pick it up and solve the problem, or argue incessantly for hours as to why it is not a problem and why it is too much effort to pick it up.

Until someone steps on it.

Seems that many still just want to argue and not actually deal with it.

I hope that finally you might understand other peoples issues, If not nothing anyone can write will persuade you.


That is a lot of words you have there, allow me to use fewer and get right to the point. CCP are not going to give you the ability to launch a bunch of light drones with the power and tank of frigates. You get the same drones I have in my mega and they work just fine on frigates.
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#983 - 2014-04-20 13:58:58 UTC
@stoicfaux: Or faction the omni(s).

Swap the booster for another PWNAGE, it doesnt need it for PVE. Often the passive is enough from what I've seen.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#984 - 2014-04-20 14:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)


Yes there IS!

First of all, the dps of the Rattlesnake gets a major buff: Instead of 4 cruise launchers your ship will do the damage of 6 without changing the fitting! But wait, there's more! If you sacrifice a bit of drone range, you'll do almost twice as much missile damage than before!
You hate it that you are given a choice? Don't live with it!
Sentry drones! Your Garde IIs will do a bit less damage (however at a slightly longer range) due to the sentry rebalance, but the others will be more shiny than before.

And like so many said before, if you are worried about frigs, fit RLMLs.
Instead of being able to "downsize" drones, you have bonused launchers you can downsize.
But that's a fitting choice, instead of a choice of which drones to release.

Now...
For just a moment consider what you'd get, if you had BOTH bonused super lightdrones, and 5 bonused RLML-s.
And try and convince anyone that with a 4% shield resist bonus, the base shield health and all those midslots the Rattlesnake has, it wouldn't be BRUTAL.
All the while it can swap to Ogre IIs and still do 700+ dps with drones alone, 1k overall, on a frigate murder platform.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
motie one
Secret Passage
#985 - 2014-04-20 14:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)


Yes there IS!

First of all, the dps of the Rattlesnake gets a major buff: Instead of 4 cruise launchers your ship will do the damage of 6 without changing the fitting! But wait, there's more! If you sacrifice a bit of drone range, you'll do almost twice as much missile damage than before!
You hate it that you are given a choice? Don't live with it!
Sentry drones! Your Garde IIs will do a bit less damage (however at a slightly longer range) due to the sentry rebalance, but the others will be more shiny than before.

And like so many said before, if you are worried about frigs, fit RLMLs.
Instead of being able to "downsize" drones, you have bonused launchers you can downsize.
But that's a fitting choice, instead of a choice of which drones to release.

Now...
For just a moment consider what you'd get, if you had BOTH bonused super lightdrones, and 5 bonused RLML-s.
And try and convince anyone that with a 4% shield resist bonus, the base shield health and all those midslots the Rattlesnake has, it wouldn't be BRUTAL.
All the while it can swap to Ogre IIs and still do 700+ dps with drones alone, 1k overall, on a frigate murder platform.



I have read the original post and wonder if we have read the same one??

Yes the rattlesnake has been given additional damage to missiles, that is clearly stated.clear as day.
Fitting RLML to the rattlesnake is of course an option,a pretty dumb one though. and fitting them to the Gila is the only sensible fit without T2 heavy precision missiles.yeah, thats the only fit, no choices there. I see no request for bonused superlight drones., just standard bonused drones with exactly the same hitpoints and effective drones as presently there. So what are you on about.?

He does not deny it will be a good ship, he talks about the whole drone system and the mechanics of drones in depth to try explain to people who don't use them i guess, or just trying to be heard over the crap, you are completely ignoring that and the worries he has. He is not the only one, they will be a bloody pain to use, why the hell use such screwed up drones anyway. I dont know about the new sentries, 2 better ones instead of 5? Just have to try those, but drones overall are now no fun and crappy after this

He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#986 - 2014-04-20 14:48:30 UTC
motie one wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
NOTE:- NOWHERE IN THIS POST IS A REQUEST FOR A BUFF. (In capitals for the benefit of those who find it hard to read.)


Yes there IS!

First of all, the dps of the Rattlesnake gets a major buff: Instead of 4 cruise launchers your ship will do the damage of 6 without changing the fitting! But wait, there's more! If you sacrifice a bit of drone range, you'll do almost twice as much missile damage than before!
You hate it that you are given a choice? Don't live with it!
Sentry drones! Your Garde IIs will do a bit less damage (however at a slightly longer range) due to the sentry rebalance, but the others will be more shiny than before.

And like so many said before, if you are worried about frigs, fit RLMLs.
Instead of being able to "downsize" drones, you have bonused launchers you can downsize.
But that's a fitting choice, instead of a choice of which drones to release.

Now...
For just a moment consider what you'd get, if you had BOTH bonused super lightdrones, and 5 bonused RLML-s.
And try and convince anyone that with a 4% shield resist bonus, the base shield health and all those midslots the Rattlesnake has, it wouldn't be BRUTAL.
All the while it can swap to Ogre IIs and still do 700+ dps with drones alone, 1k overall, on a frigate murder platform.



I have read the original post and wonder if we have read the same one??

Yes the rattlesnake has been given additional damage to missiles, that is clearly stated.
Fitting RLML to the rattlesnake is of course an option, and fitting them to the Gila is the only sensible fit without T2 heavy precision missiles.yeah, thats the only fit, no choices there. I see no request for bonused superlight drones., just standard bonused drones with exactly the same hitpoints and effective drones as presently there. So what are you on about.?

He does not deny it will be a good ship, he talks about the whole drone system and the mechanics of drones in depth to try explain to people who don't use them i guess, or just trying to be heard over the crap, you are completely ignoring that and the worries he has. He is not the only one, they will be a bloody pain to use, why the hell use such screwed up drones anyway. I dont know about the new sentries, 2 better ones instead of 5? Just have to try those, but drones overall are now no fun and crappy after this

He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what


It would be too good.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#987 - 2014-04-20 15:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
motie one wrote:
He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

So WTF, did you read it or what
I'm not looking at the ship's drones alone, but drones + missiles.

The other drone battleships in game have turrets, that cannot track once things get in close.
If you fit the Rattlesnake thus, the rapid launchers can.
In fact, it's the only drone ship that can pick between Small, Medium or Large hardpoint weapon systems, and I'm hard-pressed to name any other ship that has such a luxury, at best some missile ships have the appropiate rapid launcher bonused, but not the one even below.

If this not downsizeable drone idea came for a turret hardpoint only ship, it would be a lot worse.
But that is not the case.

  • If it is necessary to use the MJD for range control then the MJD now takes one well out of drone control range adding to drone micromanagement.
    • Only if you mess it up. With a spare high you still have 80km range, just jump "towards" the rats that are 10km from you, and by the time you release the sentries, they are in range.

  • So in short the rattlesnake has become a missile boat. With supporting drones.
    • The difference is, that I barely use my light drones, so for me it's still at the same drone power 95% of the time with the added missile capabilities.

  • Rattlesnake 50% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light and medium drones, keeps same number of effective drones
    • I don't see a reason for the medium drone buff, mainly because I never use them.

    Buffing the light ones would be an "extra" bonus if you will, which while does have precedence is a bit awkward, making more of a mess of this drone thing.

    The whole superdrone idea is awkward, I don't deny it!

  • Rattlesnake either 25km to drone control range to keep same effective drone control range to prevent the new dead area, where drone damage will not be applied. Or drop the new launcher and add to the missile damage bonus,to keep it the same as originally suggested.

    • Once again, don't MJD furthest away from the rats, but at an angle, and you have no dead zone, if that worries you so much.
    Sure, you lose a bit of buffer if you fit for full damage, but I find that in fact a really interesting trade-off!
    A choice, instead of what I have now!
    Look at the normal and navy Domi! It has as many turrets as highslots.
    Does anyone complain there?
    So why does it suddenly hurt so badly here, with only two straight buffs being the only way to solve this "problem".

  • (If CCP Rise wanted to buff the ship some more, this could be also achieved by an additional high slot, his choice, naturally would effect the ability to fit other things too.)
    • ...no comment

  • Gila 200% bonus to damage and hitpoints for light drones. To keep approximately the same number of effective drones
    • 4 drones with +200% damage are 12 drones' worth. Currently to my best knowledge the Gila does the damage of 7.5 with lights.
    I was being generous, and assumed he means +100% in which case it would be the damage of 8 drones instead of the current 7.5.
    If he wanted it without a typo and without a buff, he would have said 87.5%. Sure, it's not a pretty number, but nore is 37.5% and people can live with it on their active repair ships.


    An extra module slot, a module slot's role being baked into the hull bonus, removal of a hardpoint and it's damage being baked into the hull bonus, drones in the proposal unbonused doing more damage than the live version, if they are not buffs I don't know what the word "buff" means.


    His proposals to fix the awkwardness of superdrones? I understand why he wants them, I just don't agree due to the reasons I've tried to explain.
    You don't have to agree.
    But don't claim I post without reading please.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Stein Backstabber
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #988 - 2014-04-20 15:21:10 UTC
    Not being funny, if you find yourself in the position where you NEED to MJD in a rattler, you're doing it so horribly wrong I dont even...

    PvE this thing is a godlike machine, PvP...it's a lot scarier than it used to be, though still not the best.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #989 - 2014-04-20 15:24:09 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Sgt Ocker wrote:

    So what your saying is - For the new Snake when fit as a drone boat, it is ok to have nearly half of its available "drone bay" on a "drone boat" filled with "un - bonused" drones.


    If the tradeoff is that it gets a full set of launchers on top of that?

    You betcha.

    Quote:

    Yeah that'll work just fine - probably only in EFT though. Practical application, it will simply fail miserably.


    How on earth can you be speculating on the "practical application" of something that is not available for testing with any more accuracy than I?

    Especially when you're basically trying to tell me that 2 super bonused drones is somehow worse than 5 regular bonused drones... for some reason.

    What would that reason be, anyway?

    Hmm, seems you missed the point in the 1st part of your response.. You won't have "a full rack" of missiles if fit for maximum drones. You will have 4 launchers with maybe 2 BCU.

    I can quite easily "speculate" by simply using a little common sense.. Look at drone mechanics, read the fine print (which really isn't fine but seems to be getting ignored by all who would like to think super drones will be "awesome I win").

    If you actually read the post - I never said 2 super drones would be worse than 5 bonused drones. I said the ship loses a huge amount of it versatility due to NOT having bonuses to light and medium drones.

    Speculation - I can throw a fit on the snake that says it will get just over 1500 Dps - All 5's, max implants, minimal tank.. Reality is, around 900 Dps and of that you will consistently apply 650 to 700. Less if using Heavies over Sentries and your target isn't webbed.

    As I said in a previous post - IMO, The Rattlesnake will be used as a missile boat with drone support. Not a Drone boat with missile support.
    Slot layout + missile bonuses, make it the ideal battleship missile platform with max tanking ability not being hindered with the need for midslot drone upgrades.


    I do honestly hope I am wrong and that my "speculation" is off by miles. But without changes to the way medium and heavy drones engage a target, they are likely to be very lacklustre when it comes to damage application.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #990 - 2014-04-20 15:26:01 UTC
    motie one wrote:
    I have read the original post and wonder if we have read the same one??

    Yes the rattlesnake has been given additional damage to missiles, that is clearly stated.clear as day.
    Fitting RLML to the rattlesnake is of course an option,a pretty dumb one though. and fitting them to the Gila is the only sensible fit without T2 heavy precision missiles.yeah, thats the only fit, no choices there. I see no request for bonused superlight drones., just standard bonused drones with exactly the same hitpoints and effective drones as presently there. So what are you on about.?

    He does not deny it will be a good ship, he talks about the whole drone system and the mechanics of drones in depth to try explain to people who don't use them i guess, or just trying to be heard over the crap, you are completely ignoring that and the worries he has. He is not the only one, they will be a bloody pain to use, why the hell use such screwed up drones anyway. I dont know about the new sentries, 2 better ones instead of 5? Just have to try those, but drones overall are now no fun and crappy after this

    He is pointing out, where things went wrong and how to fix it. Without making it any more a WTFPwnm mobile than ccp already made it.

    So WTF, did you read it or what

    Ah, wrong version got posted originally.

    ...Embarrassing.

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Stein Backstabber
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #991 - 2014-04-20 18:28:26 UTC
    But it's NOT your sole primary system, you're still punching out battleship grade missile DPS. My mate has a couple of 5% implants in this figure but taking that into account, she'll punch out just shy of 800 missile DPS in the new 'snake. With two PWNAGES on there. And rigors.

    Eight hundred.

    Not having the 750 DPS of gardes out isnt exactly going to break the bank until the frigs die in flames.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #992 - 2014-04-20 18:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Stein Backstabber wrote:
    But it's NOT your sole primary system, you're still punching out battleship grade missile DPS. My mate has a couple of 5% implants in this figure but taking that into account, she'll punch out just shy of 800 missile DPS in the new 'snake. With two PWNAGES on there. And rigors.

    Eight hundred.

    Not having the 750 DPS of gardes out isnt exactly going to break the bank until the frigs die in flames.



    Ok just shut down half or 3/4 of your guns, try it, see how much *fun* that is?

    Or is the suggestion forget drones the rattler should be fitted as a missile ship?

    Or what? What is it you are looking for? Remove light drones? Make sentries track them? What? Because all the damage set to missiles with precisions and missile application rigs with target painters, so you can hit any frigate? So a fit specifically to make sure you can kill frigates with missiles? Why not fly a missile ship in the first place? This is a drone boat that is now meant to be good with missiles too, why kill the drone part ? and this is all dealt with in depth, explained in depth, is it necessary to post links on every page?? That people still either do not read or understand?

    This thread is becoming polarised into those who know drone boats and the issues effecting them.
    Those who do not know drone boats so underestimating the issues effecting them.
    And trolls

    To understand the issues, those who do not have experience of the day to day restrictions inherent in the drone weapon system will need to either emphasise or learn.

    Unfortunately it is clear that is not happening.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    Xorionna
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #993 - 2014-04-20 18:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorionna
    Stein Backstabber wrote:
    But it's NOT your sole primary system, you're still punching out battleship grade missile DPS. My mate has a couple of 5% implants in this figure but taking that into account, she'll punch out just shy of 800 missile DPS in the new 'snake. With two PWNAGES on there. And rigors.

    Eight hundred.

    Not having the 750 DPS of gardes out isnt exactly going to break the bank until the frigs die in flames.


    how many target painting do you need on a immobile frigate to actually do half of 800 dps ?
    Because you need about 3 bombs to destroy a still helios, but it has only about 1700 hp, ant the bomb damage says 6400 !(OMFGNERFNERFNERF!)
    Numbers are so useful to make anyone's point when used out of context.


    edit: typing is hard
    edit:I'll check the topic later tomorrow to see how the flaming goes, have a fun Sunday !
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #994 - 2014-04-20 18:51:20 UTC
    Xorionna wrote:
    Stein Backstabber wrote:
    But it's NOT your sole primary system, you're still punching out battleship grade missile DPS. My mate has a couple of 5% implants in this figure but taking that into account, she'll punch out just shy of 800 missile DPS in the new 'snake. With two PWNAGES on there. And rigors.

    Eight hundred.

    Not having the 750 DPS of gardes out isnt exactly going to break the bank until the frigs die in flames.


    how many target painting do you need on a immobile frigate to actually do half of 800 dps ?
    Because you need about 3 bombs to destroy a still helios, but it has only about 1700 hp, ant the bomb damage says 6400 !(OMFGNERFNERFNERF!)
    Numbers are so useful to make anyone's point when used out of context.


    edit: typing is hard


    Golem with one faction TP will kill assault frigs in 4-5 vollies with no drones using torps. The rattle can use any missiles.
    Stein Backstabber
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #995 - 2014-04-20 18:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
    It should be fitted as it is today (niche use like L5s aside) - for both missiles and drones and active tanked.

    The boat has too many damned slots to NOT do that today, or are you passive fail-fitting when you're not in heavy neut territory? Oh and by the way, the move of omnis to active mods killed that use anyway.

    The other ships you compare it too, can they deploy 750+ DPS worth of drones when it suits? Of course not.


    I singularly fail to see why a ship with this much tank, this much damage can legitimately complain about having "normal" light drones.


    If you have a philisophical issue with it, that is fine, but you cant bring that into balance.


    Edit: Like I've said, I've seen what a Fleet Typhoon can do today, slapping a rattler tank on that and better drone application/survivability...dear lord it'll be a flying wtfpwnmobile as it is. Never mind with more buffs.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #996 - 2014-04-20 18:53:59 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Golem with one faction TP will kill assault frigs in 4-5 vollies with no drones using torps. The rattle can use any missiles.


    You could also be a real man and just fit two TPs, point and web. So you'd need 3-4 volleys less :P
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #997 - 2014-04-20 18:56:23 UTC
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Golem with one faction TP will kill assault frigs in 4-5 vollies with no drones using torps. The rattle can use any missiles.


    You could also be a real man and just fit two TPs, point and web. So you'd need 3-4 volleys less :P


    I just retrofit a raven with rlml, fill the mids with webs and scrams and armour tank it to make them think they are winning.

    This new rattle is just downright nasty.
    Stein Backstabber
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #998 - 2014-04-20 18:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
    Xorionna wrote:
    Stein Backstabber wrote:
    But it's NOT your sole primary system, you're still punching out battleship grade missile DPS. My mate has a couple of 5% implants in this figure but taking that into account, she'll punch out just shy of 800 missile DPS in the new 'snake. With two PWNAGES on there. And rigors.

    Eight hundred.

    Not having the 750 DPS of gardes out isnt exactly going to break the bank until the frigs die in flames.


    how many target painting do you need on a immobile frigate to actually do half of 800 dps ?
    Because you need about 3 bombs to destroy a still helios, but it has only about 1700 hp, ant the bomb damage says 6400 !(OMFGNERFNERFNERF!)
    Numbers are so useful to make anyone's point when used out of context.


    edit: typing is hard
    edit:I'll check the topic later tomorrow to see how the flaming goes, have a fun Sunday !


    /facepalm.

    Shoot the frigs with light drones (like everyone else), pump 800 into bigger targets. Recall when frigs die, move up to the 1500-1600 DPS range, proceed to wipe out rats like nothing you've ever seen before.


    And if you're REALLY bothered, you can use precisions cruises with your 2 PWNAGES to kill elites. Works extremely well, I assure you.
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #999 - 2014-04-20 19:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
    Stein Backstabber wrote:
    It should be fitted as it is today (niche use like L5s aside) - for both missiles and drones and active tanked.

    The boat has too many damned slots to NOT do that today, or are you passive fail-fitting when you're not in heavy neut territory? Oh and by the way, the move of omnis to active mods killed that use anyway.

    The other ships you compare it too, can they deploy 750+ DPS worth of drones when it suits? Of course not.


    I singularly fail to see why a ship with this much tank, this much damage can legitimately complain about having "normal" light drones.


    If you have a philisophical issue with it, that is fine, but you cant bring that into balance.


    Edit: Like I've said, I've seen what a Fleet Typhoon can do today, slapping a rattler tank on that and better drone application/survivability...dear lord it'll be a flying wtfpwnmobile as it is. Never mind with more buffs.



    Firstly, this is a rattlesnake, I am sure there will be a lot of EFT fitting discussions later, but not really helpful at the moment.

    The rattlesnake is a drone boat, so discussing drones is somewhat appropriate.

    Pointing out possible omissions and issues to help Solve a potential clusterfuck is not usually described as a philosophy but whatever.
    I thought that was the point of the forum? To give info and feedback to the devs? Not a place for posturing and loud opinions?

    As a self admitted casual drone user, are your attempts to shut down discussion really helpful to the balance of this ship

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1000 - 2014-04-20 19:06:27 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:



    Firstly, this is a rattlesnake, I am sure there will be a lot of EFT fitting discussions later, but not really helpful at the moment.

    The rattlesnake is a drone boat, so discussing drones is somewhat appropriate.

    Solving a potential clusterfuck is not usually described as a philosophy but whatever.


    Its not a pure droneboat, its a hybrid of missiles and drones. You are not taking into account everything involved with this ship.

    Also people experienced in flying battleships can figure out fits just based upon the stats in the OP.