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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW rebal thread
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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#61 - 2014-04-18 21:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Veskrashen wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
All FW really needs as "fixes" is some useful benefits for system upgrade, some way to counter a single stabbed farmers impact to the WZ with a single pilot (ie see auto timer rollbacks as a suggestion), and make all the other faction mission NPCs as hard as Gallente. Other than that, FW is a pretty healthy system.

This. So much this.

My impression is that the Caldari and Minmatar militias are as toxic as they are because they're seen as LP ATMs by so much of New Eden. That means they have a higher percentage of pilots who are just there to milk the system for as many LP as possible while contributing as little as possible. Minmatar missions are easier and their warzone is smaller with more agents available, so TLF generates the most LP/hour for bomber alts. Thus Minmatar attract the most of these LP farmers, which makes that warzone particularly toxic since Amarr pilots have to deal with that population all the damn time.

Caldari is second on the list, and the ATM of choice of failed nullbears everywhere, because Jita.

As far as plex farmers and stabs go, the problem isn't the stabs and the cloaks. It's the disparate amount of time it takes to undo their work and the absolutely miserly rewards for doing so. That results in a ridiculously skewed risk / reward / effort equation, which is the real source of the frustration. Something to fix this - timer rollbacks, dual timers, uncoupling deplex rewards from contested percentage - will go a long way to solving this problem without having to create mechanics specifically targeted at cloaks and WCS (which are, after all, valid gameplay choices).

As much as I want to push the other ideas, I'm inclined to agree with the sobering reality this first statement represents. As I stated before, I can run caldari lvl 4s in a damn merlin.

There is something wrong with that.

Maybe upgrading the system could decrease the spawn rate of complexes, or making it more difficult to offensive plex them? Something to make the system not only more appealing but defensible would be excellent.

I think something as simple as having a shorter timer for decontesting a complex that's cumulative with the upgrade level of the system would go a long way to assisting with the farming problem. Generally I've found the simplest solution is the best despite my need to come up with an enormous host of ideas for everything, so finding out a way to let the farmers focus slightly more on defensive plexing would benefit everyone, I think.
Timer reduction for defensive plexing, and maybe more hard-hitting NPCs to discourage solo work. If you do that in conjunction with the idea of adding more fast, elite ships into the missions to discourage bomber runs for everything (or little frigates for that matter) I could see things shaping up a little in regards to either reducing or redirecting farming.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#62 - 2014-04-18 21:39:00 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Generally I've found the simplest solution is the best despite my need to come up with an enormous host of ideas for everything, so finding out a way to let the farmers focus slightly more on defensive plexing would benefit everyone, I think.
Simplest solution is timer rollbacks.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-04-18 22:45:37 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Generally I've found the simplest solution is the best despite my need to come up with an enormous host of ideas for everything, so finding out a way to let the farmers focus slightly more on defensive plexing would benefit everyone, I think.
Simplest solution is timer rollbacks.

Indeed. If there was a natural timer decay when people weren't in a plex, that'd make a whole lot of sense IMO.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#64 - 2014-04-18 23:35:22 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Generally I've found the simplest solution is the best despite my need to come up with an enormous host of ideas for everything, so finding out a way to let the farmers focus slightly more on defensive plexing would benefit everyone, I think.
Simplest solution is timer rollbacks.

Indeed. If there was a natural timer decay when people weren't in a plex, that'd make a whole lot of sense IMO.

That's another good idea I would support that I've seen kicked around a lot. Would be interesting to see how the devs would integrate that...
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#65 - 2014-04-19 06:19:23 UTC
....random thought... so you get evemail when someone attacks POS or POCO, why not militia wide for iHUBs. Could lead to some great fights.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#66 - 2014-04-19 16:22:58 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
....random thought... so you get evemail when someone attacks POS or POCO, why not militia wide for iHUBs. Could lead to some great fights.

There's a high likelihood that could also lead to some serious spamming...
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#67 - 2014-04-20 06:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
....random thought... so you get evemail when someone attacks POS or POCO, why not militia wide for iHUBs. Could lead to some great fights.

There's a high likelihood that could also lead to some serious spamming...


Not if it was only posted in the FW intel page.?!

Have another tab in the FW page with 'current intel' that posts when I-hubs are being attacked. Simples. \o/

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-04-20 09:58:35 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
....random thought... so you get evemail when someone attacks POS or POCO, why not militia wide for iHUBs. Could lead to some great fights.

There's a high likelihood that could also lead to some serious spamming...


Not if it was only posted in the FW intel page.?!

Have another tab in the FW page with 'current intel' that posts when I-hubs are being attacked. Simples. \o/


I was thinking that people would take advantage of this by when there IS a bash fleet out, they'd send out some proxy bombers to some of the other vuln systems to spam the mail, so the response fleet would have to take more time figuring out which one is actually being hit. I don't see it changing anything from the current system...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#69 - 2014-04-20 10:15:03 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
*deleted Sacrilege setup*

HACs definitely work - a lot of folks will use an Ishtar for FW missions, with Sentries / MWD / Cloak. I prefer being able to warp around cloaked, but that's partly because I'm lazy, partly because you don't need an overwhelming tank to deal with the DPS (500-600 is plenty), and partly because going for massive DPS isn't necessarily a good tradeoff over the warp speed bonus that you can get using a Gravitational Capacitor propulsion subsystem. Since in the Cal/Gal warzone - having to do about 30-40 jumps round trip to gather your missions, plus another 50-60 jumps to run them all and get back home - travel time is really the determining factor, I find being able to hit about 5 au/sec in a cloaky Proteus offers the best of all worlds.

Here's my current fit for reference:
[Proteus, FW Missions Budget Cloaky DPS]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Capacitor Recharger II
Large Capacitor Battery II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier

This fit is cap stable with the MWD off and repper running, and while the paste holds you tank 1000+ DPS in Caldari missions. You do roughly 450dps out to 20km, and can reliably start applying DPS with antimatter out to about 35-40. Sensor strength with low-grade Spurs clocks in at 80-90 depending on your skills. The usual plan is to MWD to 20km, engaging at 30km or so, and pulse the repper as needed. If you run out of paste, just leave it on autorepeat - you're still repping over 300dps and have a pretty decent armor buffer. Warps at about 4.9AU/sec give or take, making it almost as fast around the warzone as a frigate, and has a CovOps cloak for more awesomeness. A corpmate pointed out that the DCU II is not really adding much tank to the fit, and he's right... a second EANM or cap mod or armor plate or 4th Mag Stab II would be entirely viable options. I'm just a creature of habits in some respects.

You can swap out for Heavy Neutron IIs with no loss of cap stability or need for a fitting mod, and gain about 90DPS. This comes at the expense of not being able to engage until about 5km or so with Void / Antimatter, and thus having more issues with rats close to structures / asteroids / etc which can complicate escaping when things get ugly.

All in all it clocks in at about 350mil isk, which is surprisingly affordable for a T3, and has some unique advantages over some comparable HAC fits.


I like it, although admittedly I'm against using rails for pve situations most of the time. I'm guessing your sig isn't too much of an issue with the kin resists you're pulling, although I'm surprised you use an anci instead of a perma-run deadspace rep. Too much micromanaging makes me antsy.

That being said, would you be against a general fit oversized AB shield buffer tengu? I've found it works surprisingly well for soloing lvl 5 missions, and works for an extremely wide variety of uses. I'm assuming you don't really have caldari or many missiles trained, but I figure it's just as likely that you do. Here; even if this doesn't translate to FW missions, it's astonishing what else you can do with it at range:
[Tengu]

[Subsystems]
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

[High Slots]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

[Med Slots]
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Domination 100MN Afterburner

[Low Slots]
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Gravimetric Backup Array II

[Rigs]
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Generally when I'm doing lvl 5 missions, I forgo the sensor mods and just fit for buffer tank on the mids, and a 3rd bcs on the bottom. I travel fit it, and either dock up and swap out, or in the case of FW missions that you'd apply this with, pop a mobile depot to swap out your subs when you get there after travelling in a cloaked, stabbed tengu that doesn't bat an eye at camps.
The faction mods are also extremely cheap; the whole setup shouldn't run you any more than between 400-500 mil.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-04-20 21:54:15 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Mission Tengu Fit

You might notice that I'm Civre, and I've got a lot more SP in missiles than I do in drones or hybrids. I've even got a spare mission Tengu sitting around that I started with for FW missions. I like my Proteus better; the ancil works perfectly fine and is a lot cheaper than the deadspace mods. Since the mission DPS increases over time on average, I find that using deadspace mods leaves you overtanked in the beginning and not always as stable near the end (especially in ones like Roidiest Rage or Shades of Grey). An MAAR bridges that gap well, and as a Gallente I'm used to managing armor mods.

I like your setup, and it definitely seems viable. I've not tried a passive setup Tengu before, might have to give it a shot. I don't know that the 100mn AB is needed though... will definitely give you some speed tank ability, but if you're range kiting as it is I don't think you need a whole lot more speed than a 10mn AB will give you. A corpmate of mine likes a 10mn HML Tengu, and takes a lot less incoming DPS. Seems viable enough.

I'm not a fan of non-CovOps setups or ones that require you to haul around a mobile depot. IMO the setup time and need to swap around subsystems and mods twice for each mission devalues any time savings the higher DPS would give you in the mission itself. Travel time is the biggest factor IMO for faction warfare missions, so minimizing that (assuming you meet the tank and DPS hurdles) is more important.

I might try out a variant of your fit one of these days. I'm intrigued to see if a passive fit is feasible.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#71 - 2014-04-21 08:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Veskrashen wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Mission Tengu Fit

You might notice that I'm Civre, and I've got a lot more SP in missiles than I do in drones or hybrids. I've even got a spare mission Tengu sitting around that I started with for FW missions. I like my Proteus better; the ancil works perfectly fine and is a lot cheaper than the deadspace mods. Since the mission DPS increases over time on average, I find that using deadspace mods leaves you overtanked in the beginning and not always as stable near the end (especially in ones like Roidiest Rage or Shades of Grey). An MAAR bridges that gap well, and as a Gallente I'm used to managing armor mods.

I like your setup, and it definitely seems viable. I've not tried a passive setup Tengu before, might have to give it a shot. I don't know that the 100mn AB is needed though... will definitely give you some speed tank ability, but if you're range kiting as it is I don't think you need a whole lot more speed than a 10mn AB will give you. A corpmate of mine likes a 10mn HML Tengu, and takes a lot less incoming DPS. Seems viable enough.

I'm not a fan of non-CovOps setups or ones that require you to haul around a mobile depot. IMO the setup time and need to swap around subsystems and mods twice for each mission devalues any time savings the higher DPS would give you in the mission itself. Travel time is the biggest factor IMO for faction warfare missions, so minimizing that (assuming you meet the tank and DPS hurdles) is more important.

I might try out a variant of your fit one of these days. I'm intrigued to see if a passive fit is feasible.


It's less speed tanking and more sig tanking the rats' ****** transversal and getting out to range quickly enough. The stupidly huge amount of dps in lvl 5s works well with buffer tanking, because generally you just pummel the neut towers as long as you can before warping out repeatedly, and once you do you can just pull range and kite. You don't get hit by a damn thing at those speeds and ranges, but I could see swapping down to a 10mn working if you fit the sub for the extra launcher for better dps. It's a tradeoff I guess.

Generally with those kinds of things I prefer to follow murphey's law; if something can go wrong it probably will go wrong, so the less that can go wrong in any given situation the better, so having a setup that doesn't require any micromanaging or specific manual input most of the time is ideal in my mind in regards to pve and to a certain extent specifically with brawling, pvp.