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Rookie systems policy suggestion: Disallow mining barges and exhumers
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-04-18 01:29:30 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So Rookie systems are there primarily just for new players to learn the game, primarily through the tutorials etc right?

So why not just get rid of the ore. Make the missions requring mining use some "mission ore", which already exists for other missions anyhow. If a rookie wants to mine for isk they can easily fly one system over and do so.

Seems like an easier fix that all these wonky ship/module restrictions.




I think tutorials should teach the mechanics of public asteroid belts as they are part of the game.

IIRC there is also a deadspace mining tutorial.


Yes but the public belts don't have to be profitable.

Either way making the rookie systems a tutorial system (not something you live and make isk in) seems to make more sense than arbitrarily trying to restrict certain ship access.
Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-04-18 02:43:02 UTC
Remove the anti-PVP restrictions from rookie systems, have concord ships in every asteroid belt in 1.0-0.9 systems.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#23 - 2014-04-18 11:00:20 UTC
I fully support this, if you mean by rookie systems the career agent systems.

It doesn't make sense, that very new players have to compete for the tiny roids in their ventures or rookie frigates (when they lost their first venture) against older players in exhumer or barges or players that have trained long enough to get into their first barge.

Once you are able to field a barge, your good to go out into the surrounding highsec systems anyway.

Yes, there is a lot of ore in career agent missions. But many players just grind away the little belts available in those systems.

Remove standings and insurance.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#24 - 2014-04-18 11:02:32 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".

-1 on the idea.

You don't have to. Leave the career agent system. It's just one jump.

Remove standings and insurance.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#25 - 2014-04-18 11:10:54 UTC
If it really is a serious problem and not a solution in search of a problem then the original post makes sense.
Otherwise, just messing with things, well just because.

So if there is a general problem, by all means put something in place, have concorde gank large fleets trying it, if it really is a big issue.
Good training exercise for noobs to be aware of gank mechanics and how tanking can help, build it into the lesson plan when it happens.


If it is a minor edge case, lots of effort for little gain, ignore and move on.

Next.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#26 - 2014-04-18 11:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Asia Leigh wrote:
eh...

The rules say your not allowed to 'grief' rookies in the rookie systems. We can assume that people in orca's and exhumers are not rookies. My question then becomes, Are we allowed to suicide gank people in rookie systems that clearly aren't rookies? I've never seen anything concrete on this.

I would probably give the T1 mining barges a pass as they can be trained for under a week with the booster, but that's an edge case at best.

Yes you are.

Problem is, that there are edge cases ofc. Also a rookie might get involved. Or an older player might trick you into doing something using an alt on a new account. Not every GM might look at it the same, so their recommendation is, "don't do anything in rookie systems, that might get you into trouble".

This is a waste of precious GM resources really.

Remove standings and insurance.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#27 - 2014-04-18 11:20:15 UTC
Dreadchain wrote:


I don't think spawning infinite ore in highsec is exactly a good idea.


Doesn't have to be infinite. If it's on a timed respawn it's going to be a controllable amount of spawns. Doesn't need to be a timer as long as ice spawns. And it solves vastly greater issues than rookies having trouble getting spawns. Without isolating them from the competitive nature of EVE
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#28 - 2014-04-18 11:21:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
@OP: howabout disallow strip miner activation instead of disallowing mining barges. Maybe people want to show off their cool bigships to make the newbies swoon.

I'd be fine with that too.

Remove standings and insurance.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-04-18 14:21:05 UTC
While I agree that mining fleets in rookie systems are ridiculously lame, I don't think they should be restricted by game mechanics (otoh, deccing or ganking them is a good idea obviously!).

Most of us are often saying tutorials should show as much as possible the 'real' face of EVE: making it too easy for rookies is a bad idea imo.

IIRC there's already a tutorial mission that spawns a couple of asteroids to mine, the mission(s) that do NOT spawn asteroids are 'working as intended' if they're forcing rookies to hunt around a bit - or figure out that they can just buy the ore/minerals.

Just look at the newbie that made that post in New Citizens Q&A (that I assume inspired this post in F&I): he encountered a problem, came to the forums, met a bunch of helpful people, learned a lot more than what a system without lame multiboxers would've taught him!


TL;DR: the rookie system miners are lame and should be ganked, but don't make it too easy for the rookies. We wanna forge them into hardened EVE citizens!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-04-19 04:44:57 UTC
Asia Leigh wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".

-1 on the idea.


I think he is talking about the 20 man fleets that goes in with hulks and orca's that clearly aren't new players as they require months to train for.

While that may be what he is "talking about" what he outlines in his post will effect all players not just "vets".. banning mining barges...really? That's going to hit noobs harder than anyone else.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-04-19 04:48:41 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".

-1 on the idea.



That other player wasn't a rookie, they were flying a ship that takes a full week to train into. (Edit: Historically some barges did not take that long to train into IIRC, but they all take a week now). There is a reason that newbie systems do not have level 3 security mission agents in them or DED 3/10 complexes (two other activities risk-averse players might take part in after a week of training).

I really don't care that much about the corner cases like that though, it's the whole fleets of multiboxed (or maybe botted) Mackinaws and Retrievers with Orca support that are the ones griefing rookies by preventing them learning the mining interface.

so, your definition of non-noob now is someone who is more than a week old? I'm sorry but I just do not agree with you at all at this point. Your idea is both radical and draconian.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#32 - 2014-04-19 04:58:51 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".

-1 on the idea.



That other player wasn't a rookie, they were flying a ship that takes a full week to train into. (Edit: Historically some barges did not take that long to train into IIRC, but they all take a week now). There is a reason that newbie systems do not have level 3 security mission agents in them or DED 3/10 complexes (two other activities risk-averse players might take part in after a week of training).

I really don't care that much about the corner cases like that though, it's the whole fleets of multiboxed (or maybe botted) Mackinaws and Retrievers with Orca support that are the ones griefing rookies by preventing them learning the mining interface.

so, your definition of non-noob now is someone who is more than a week old? I'm sorry but I just do not agree with you at all at this point. Your idea is both radical and draconian.



Do you think that rookie systems should have level 4 security missions in them then?

Because newbies can do level 4s in a battleship before they can unlock a Retriever.

These systems are designed for raw newbies, someone with a week of training under their belt can mine in non-rookie 0.8 and up systems where ganks almost never occur.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Kestrix
The Whispering
#33 - 2014-04-19 09:38:33 UTC
When I started eve the first player corp I joined was due to meeting more experienced players mining in the same belt as me. There's nothing wrong with player interaction.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#34 - 2014-04-19 09:52:11 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
The rookie systems provide an area of EVE that is (almost) PVP-exempt, to let players learn the game interface in a sheltered environment. Various forms of PVP are expressly banned in these systems - invading missions to hold objectives hostage, suicide ganking, suspect games and the like.


However, this protection is routinely exploited by fleets of mining barges and exhumers (often with Orca support) who are not rookies and who engage in a (presently allowed) form of PVP against the actual rookies - competition for limited asteroid resources. This results in confusion for rookies who cannot find their 333 Veldspar for the tutorials and have to travel to surrounding systems, and is particularly evident during AU peak time (just before the downtime reset of asteroid fields).


My proposal is for a CCP policy change that removes this loophole, and allows only ships that rookies can fly (rookie ships, Ventures, and the other ships rookies use to mine because they do not know better - destroyers, frigates, Iterons and cruisers) to mine in these systems.


In particular, ships that require a week to train into (barges), a month (exhumers) or two months (Orca) would be disallowed from mining in those belts.


This would be in-line with the restrictions against other forms of PVP in those systems.


Eve is a sandbox and miners are not often griefers. The big mining fleets can look quite aspirational to noobs and make them want to stick around to buy or build the same ships. Plus forcing players into nearby systems isn't that big a deal, visiting new places is an important part of the game, even if you don't understand it fully.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
#35 - 2014-04-19 09:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
Brainstormed this ...

Rookie restricted ( so only rookies / it is a mission )
planet side minning of roaming astroids
that are enroute too close to a planet's surface.

They (astroids) are too small to be mined by mining barge-cooky-monsters (censored) ;
But, they (asteroids) would certainly contain 333 + veldspar .

Moreover, the mission would provide excitement, and rush, for the beginer to
be utilzed to save a planet's surface from possible astroid bombardment.

... and maybe could let devlopment examine increasing planet side detail
... so one day we could have uber close to surface uber fast graphic fly by searure like hazrd .... fun

The question remians of how we teach the rookie to access astroid belts
when the meaning of the minning mission was accessing the inspace
navigation interface and locate an astroidbelt. . . Whereas, this
solution would bypass that.
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-04-19 14:47:51 UTC
Have you been playing Kerbal Space Program?

Now I have been thinking that asteroid belts should maybe be a lot bigger and more spread out, so it's harder to mine them out but also the upper sec belts would have asteroids too small for a barge in that as it coasted through the belt, it would finish mining all the asteroids around it slower than it arrived at new ones. A newbie in a venture wouldn't be stopped by that. See? Perfect way to lean the balance in favor of newbies and ventures, and with the strongest impact of the change in upper sec where the asteroids are smaller.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Valkin Mordirc
#37 - 2014-04-19 15:38:00 UTC
I fully support this, During Wardecs I've seen War Targets that think they can hide in these 'safe' systems, and when I ventured into the system for a peak, I've seen T2 Battleships and the like hanging out in the system. The Rule shouldn't protect these players, I say if a player reaches a certain age of playing, say two weeks, or the player joins a Player run Corp, the Rookie protection they're granted should be revoked.

But I also suspect that CCP takes the rookie system no griefing rule with a healthy dose of common sense.
#DeleteTheWeak
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#38 - 2014-04-19 18:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Artificial restrictions in EVE? No thank you.

However, I do want to add my voice to the others that are pointing out the simple and obvious fact:

Orca-supported exhumer fleets are not rookies and can be mercilessly suicide-ganked right out of the starlit sky with no fear of reprisal from CCP.

Do your part to help protect the interests of rookie pilots everywhere: Get together with friends and blap an Orca today.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-04-19 18:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I feel certain enough about agreeing with Alvatore that I would stake my character on it and assist in said suicide gank.

EVEmail me if you want the offered assist.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lady Areola Fappington
#40 - 2014-04-19 18:50:02 UTC
I see more questions about "Where do i find ore?" from rookies, than I see "OMG I got ganked!". It's really kind of silly to give newbies a protected area to learn the game, only to tell them "You gotta leave this protected area to complete the tutorial mission chain".

Take the newbie systems, turn all the public belts into worthless mission ore. Maybe have it refine into a useless mineral, just to teach refining. Have the roids respawn stupid heug every downtime. Bang, "I can't find any asteroids to mine" problem solved!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We've been told not to bait the newbie systems into PVP, coz there's all of EVE to do that in leave those few systems alone. Well, there's all of EVE to mine in, leave the rookie systems to the rookies.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
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