Science & Industry

I once had a boss tell us at the beginning of the meeting we were going to have a 2% pay cut in the coming year. We were paid on commission and our rate was being cut from 8% to 6%. Needless to say, my paycheck went down more than 2%.

The issue with the changes to PI are they did two things at once. The reindexed prices and they changed the rate.

So yes the Tax Rate went up, and the index went up. Now people are trying to attribute both increases to one factor. You have to seperate the two.

I think R&D, BPO researching, and invention is boring. Does that give me the right to call it worthless? No. It's fun for someone I'm sure.

I liked PI and I liked that I could make a decent living being a PI mogul. Now it's a sub-micro-career. Thanks CCP. Next time just remove the entire feature instead of nerfing it into oblivion.

I was referring to income rate, not the potential fun factor. The income from it was already terrible in highsec. The fact you spent time doing it in highsec, is indicative of the problem.

They haven't "nerfed" it - 90% of the increased costs is the fact that you were riding a gravytrain of incorrectly calculated costs. They have fixed that issue, and made it so players can avoid it entirely in low/null.
If all you knee-jerk bears weren't so stupid and reactionary, you'd realise you should:
a) Still be making money if your setup was half decent in the first place
b) That prices will inevitably rise due to this, and thus so too will your profits.

Well there certainly are many many different ways of looking at this.

But no matter how you look at it this will over time cause huge inflation in the EVE market.

Everything in EVE is made by players. most common items sold in Jita have very tight profit margins.

If the costs of the base materials goes up drastically, which is what has just happened with PI products, needed for every thing Tech 2 and POS fuel, the prices of the products produced from those base materials will also go up.

I thought the whole point of CCP hiring that economist guy wast to curb the market inflation in the EVE economy. This PI change will have to oposite of the intended effect.

Care bears will not under any circumstances move their operations to low or null. there are null sec indy pilots, but they have learned to live with the risks that go along with that. High sec huging carebears will unsub before they move to low or null. most of these players enjoy the social aspects of the game but have no interest in PVP.

Considering +80% of all goods in the EVE economy are created by high sec carebears this is a big problem.

If the base price is left as is and not updated the market will stabilize at a much higher level with eventually everything costing more isk.

This makes it much harder for new player to get a foot hold in EVE. Unless they are going to start giving new characters 10,000,000 isk starting capital instead of 5,000 isk they have just pushed new players out of the PI market. No new player can afford to pay millions in import/export taxes. Give your head a shake CPP, WTF were you thinking. You obviously missed some big factors in your impact assessment.

PI was introduced as a passive income available to all including brand new players only a few days old.

Our real problem, in regard to getting those underpriced intermediates off the market, is that we are not allowed to reprocess PI products, intermediate or otherwise.
If we were, we would be buying up the underpriced products, "melting them" and relisting as correctly prices raws or precessing into what has demand, as long as there is a sufficient arbitration gap.
However, even if that was allowed, the taxes now provide a significant arbitration barrier, even if we could smelt in station for free.
Taxed in the import of the smelted raws, and taxed on the output P1/P2/P3/P4.
I wont tire you with my numbers (and my new sheet is incomplete), but you know the basics.
5% on the input, and 10% on the output (of which there considerably less).

If we didnt have to deal with that taxbarrier and if we could melt those intermediates, then "we" (the hisec industry and markets) would soon see to it that they were priced correctly and act like "the invisible hand" of Smith fame.

It wouldnt deal with overproduction of some P1/P0, but it would see to it that all p2-P4 products get balanced around the correct prices as per raw material cost.

The classic thing about this is that the entire community is going to cry when the price of just about everything goes up in the coming days. Lowsec PI usage is going to drop significantly, further increasing demand. POS fuel is going to become significantly more expensive as the producers pass along their new pain to the consumers. I expect the commodities currently on the market to evaporate quickly at the current price points as folks buy it all up to resell in a couple weeks.

Good times ahead.

Oh, another clueless one saying 'risk reward!' again.

Please.


Let me be blunt: eve is about dodging risk and stealing reward. Even the PvP is 'risk adverse'.

Oh, and the PI in low sec isn't that great.

I've got fifteen worlds on a couple alts and I make about 300k average profit (not net, profit) per world per day, in low sec.

To recoup one POCO, it would have to run uninterrupted for two years to make back the initial investment.

Let me point that out again: it would take TWO YEARS to make the isk back.

Now, granted, this is at current prices, which are guaranteed to climb rapidly, and this is assuming that nothing ever happens to it.

But just think about that. Two Years.

Risk vs reward indeed.

BTW: I'm surprised that CCP hasn't locked this thread yet too.

If you're only making 300k average per day per world, then you're doing it wrong. Especially in lo-sec.

Hi-sec PI harvest planets, with daily or every other day resets of the ECUs, can easily make 800-1200k ISK/day (average price during October / early November) for each planet. Even after paying 50 ISK/u for export tariffs to take the goods to market. And that's with only Command Center Upgrades IV (not V).

1-2 ECUs, 2-4 BIFs, 1 LP is the standard setup. Move your ECUs no more often then once a week to save a bit of ISK, never move the LP/BIFs (maybe once every 3-6 months).

P2 factory world (3 LPs 18 AIFs) that takes P1 from the market and makes P2. Makes 2-3M ISK per day, even post-tariff.

You're assuming too much there Bob.

You fail to factor ship loss, clone costs, and any import taxes. Those are also losses that count against your profits.

If you are losing clones in lowsec, you are doing it very wrong. I have only lost one pod in empire in the last 2 years, despite nearly 200 ship losses.

And with proper ships and scouting, losing haulers should be extremely rare.