These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#801 - 2014-04-18 13:20:33 UTC
What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#802 - 2014-04-18 13:25:01 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage


This was what I was trying to fix before I even read the Worm/Gila changes (They were posted, but I didn't see them)

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#803 - 2014-04-18 13:26:16 UTC
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.

You get to swap your drones out twice and that "only" if all 7 of your drones are the same. Run with Heavies and a couple of sentries (sensible for a little diversity), you get to swap out drones once.
Your "drones on steroids" won't be a lot harder to kill than a tanky frigate. Web shoot - dead, repeat 3 times, Snake is out of drones.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#804 - 2014-04-18 13:28:55 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.

You get to swap your drones out twice and that "only" if all 7 of your drones are the same. Run with Heavies and a couple of sentries (sensible for a little diversity), you get to swap out drones once.
Your "drones on steroids" won't be a lot harder to kill than a tanky frigate. Web shoot - dead, repeat 3 times, Snake is out of drones.



And while you have wasted all that time killing my 100k EHP worth of drones, I've been blasting you with 700+ missile dps + the drone dps while you were trying to kill them.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#805 - 2014-04-18 13:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Last Wolf wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.

You get to swap your drones out twice and that "only" if all 7 of your drones are the same. Run with Heavies and a couple of sentries (sensible for a little diversity), you get to swap out drones once.
Your "drones on steroids" won't be a lot harder to kill than a tanky frigate. Web shoot - dead, repeat 3 times, Snake is out of drones.



And while you have wasted all that time killing my 100k EHP worth of drones, I've been blasting you with 700+ missile dps + the drone dps while you were trying to kill them.

Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from?
It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.

NB; If your drones aren't bonused, (not applying damage), meh, jam the snake and kill it.. Missiles are useless when jammed, drones are next to useless - because you fit it for max missile dps.
Kill the Snake scoop the drones and go sell them.
People would pay just to see the killmail of a snake "not" fit for drones.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#806 - 2014-04-18 13:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Last Wolf
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.

You get to swap your drones out twice and that "only" if all 7 of your drones are the same. Run with Heavies and a couple of sentries (sensible for a little diversity), you get to swap out drones once.
Your "drones on steroids" won't be a lot harder to kill than a tanky frigate. Web shoot - dead, repeat 3 times, Snake is out of drones.



And while you have wasted all that time killing my 100k EHP worth of drones, I've been blasting you with 700+ missile dps + the drone dps while you were trying to kill them.

Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from?
It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.


7.5 effective launchers = 93.75% of the missile dps a Raven gets(8 effective launchers, can hit 900+ dps with cruise). Then add drones on top of that.

The missile part of the ship can match or out-damage the drone part now. If you aren't fitting at least partially for missile damage, you are severely limiting the potential of this new Rattlesnake.

Sgt Ocker wrote:

NB; If your drones aren't bonused, (not applying damage), meh, jam the snake and kill it.. Missiles are useless when jammed, drones are next to useless - because you fit it for max missile dps.
Kill the Snake scoop the drones and go sell them.
People would pay just to see the killmail of a snake "not" fit for drones.


You could say that about ANY ship.

Just jam it, then kill it!

Well DUH, why has no-one ever thought of THAT before... /sarcasm Roll

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#807 - 2014-04-18 13:45:20 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
so, CCP Rise... on a scale of 1 to 10 how terrified are you now that capitals and super capitals are next on your list of things to re-balance?


Black Ops, Logistics, Hictors, Recons, T3s. Possibly a quick glossing-over of Freighters and JFs, with only the most minor of changes just to say "they weren't left out".

There's a lot of stuff left to be rebalanced before Caps/Supers need to come up.

Honestly, balancing T3s is the true terror compared to dealing with caps/supers.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#808 - 2014-04-18 13:59:52 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:

You could say that about ANY ship.

Just jam it, then kill it!

Well DUH, why has no-one ever thought of THAT before... /sarcasm Roll

Funny thing is - It is a drone boat. Does jamming a drone boat usually take out 80% of its potential Dps, or are the drones still applying Dps?
But wait, if a drone boat "isn't fit for drones. what happens?

Sarcasm, lol.. Yes because jamming drone boats is so successful everyone does it. Really is that your best effort?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#809 - 2014-04-18 14:00:37 UTC
Leeloo Alizee wrote:
****
More bonuses for Nightmares DPS, at least nerf Tachyons.

Dirty lazor lovers, it is hard to get in fleet with mach even now, after this it will be impossible. More DPS and more tracking than 1400 machariel, more love for amarr and another blow in the face for Minmatars, for DPS people use vindi over 800 mach aniway
FU CCP and eat drops


At least the CCP is putting the inferior race where it belongs Blink. Glory to the Amarr Empire! I also demand minmatar exotic dancers in my captains cabin :D.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#810 - 2014-04-18 14:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:

You could say that about ANY ship.

Just jam it, then kill it!

Well DUH, why has no-one ever thought of THAT before... /sarcasm Roll

Funny thing is - It is a drone boat. Does jamming a drone boat usually take out 80% of its potential Dps, or are the drones still applying Dps?
But wait, if a drone boat "isn't fit for drones. what happens?

Sarcasm, lol.. Yes because jamming drone boats is so successful everyone does it. Really is that your best effort?


Now now, you're both the prettiest little girl. So stop fighting about it.

The rattlesnake has six lows. Stacking penalties mean you can stop adding damage mods when you have three; the fourth isn't really worth it. Can you see where I'm going with this? On second thought, probably not.

Three DDA II, three BCU II. No DCU because apparently everyone seems to agree you don't need them or something.

Congratulations! Your post-rebalance Rattlesnake is now successfully fitted for both good drone DPS and good missile DPS.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#811 - 2014-04-18 14:17:33 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from?
It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.




From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#812 - 2014-04-18 14:27:01 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from?
It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.


From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles


Snake number seem right. Raven should get more than 838dps with the same setup. My Golem can hit 1k with 5% impants and faction BCU's Raven has the same base damage as a Golem.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#813 - 2014-04-18 14:27:37 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage


This was what I was trying to fix before I even read the Worm/Gila changes (They were posted, but I didn't see them)

I didnt disagree with your idea, though I think its a bit of overkill since superdrones will only be in the Gurista line.

I dont really get bent about limiting drones in space, but drone ships lose a lot for drone flexibility, and the last thing we need to do is remove the ability of a drone ship to engage small targets.

Superdrones help with drone destructibility, but do not remove it. Nor do they replace the missing slot. The bonuses also only apply to combat drones, leaving logistic and ewar drones much less effective given the bandwidth limitations of these ships.

The focus on combat is reasonable, but it should cover the smaller drones as well. Simply add appropriate role bonuses to the smaller drones so that the rattler can field similarly powerful flights of small and medium when needed, or further bonus heavies so that they can effectively fill the role that lights normally do on battleships.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#814 - 2014-04-18 14:37:23 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage


This was what I was trying to fix before I even read the Worm/Gila changes (They were posted, but I didn't see them)

I didnt disagree with your idea, though I think its a bit of overkill since superdrones will only be in the Gurista line.

I dont really get bent about limiting drones in space, but drone ships lose a lot for drone flexibility, and the last thing we need to do is remove the ability of a drone ship to engage small targets.

Superdrones help with drone destructibility, but do not remove it. Nor do they replace the missing slot. The bonuses also only apply to combat drones, leaving logistic and ewar drones much less effective given the bandwidth limitations of these ships.

The focus on combat is reasonable, but it should cover the smaller drones as well. Simply add appropriate role bonuses to the smaller drones so that the rattler can field similarly powerful flights of small and medium when needed, or further bonus heavies so that they can effectively fill the role that lights normally do on battleships.


The easiest fix would be to limit the rattle to 2 drones of ANY size. Then apply the same 275% bonus to them equally. So even with 50 bandwidth you can only field 2 light drones. Make the bonus apply to e-war and logi drones as well if needed, but I think e-war drones in general need an overhaul.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#815 - 2014-04-18 14:50:46 UTC
Won't the rattlesnake perform much nicer if it had more damage coming out of the drones and less out of the missiles?

That way you actually gain something from being limited to 2 heavy drones. Which currently perform exactly the same as 5 normally bonused heavy drones. Even the combined hitpoints of all drones in space remains the same.

And than make it so that the missiles replace the role that the light drones used to have. It has a nice bonus to every missile launcher in the game so the versatility is very high. But people generally don't like depending so much on missiles unless they are bonused for projection of any sort.

Still as it is the ship seems nice and powerfull in a way but it doesn't feel like it is continuing the power that the worm and gila have.

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#816 - 2014-04-18 14:58:15 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
What really needs to happen is the ships get limited to 2 drones of any size and the drone bonus applied to all sizes of drones.

This could be accomplished by making the Role bonus look like this:

10x bandwidth cost for light drones; 500% bonus to light drone Hitpoints and Damage
5x Bandwidth cost for medium drones; 400% bonus to Medium Drone Hitpoints and Damage


This was what I was trying to fix before I even read the Worm/Gila changes (They were posted, but I didn't see them)

I didnt disagree with your idea, though I think its a bit of overkill since superdrones will only be in the Gurista line.

I dont really get bent about limiting drones in space, but drone ships lose a lot for drone flexibility, and the last thing we need to do is remove the ability of a drone ship to engage small targets.

Superdrones help with drone destructibility, but do not remove it. Nor do they replace the missing slot. The bonuses also only apply to combat drones, leaving logistic and ewar drones much less effective given the bandwidth limitations of these ships.

The focus on combat is reasonable, but it should cover the smaller drones as well. Simply add appropriate role bonuses to the smaller drones so that the rattler can field similarly powerful flights of small and medium when needed, or further bonus heavies so that they can effectively fill the role that lights normally do on battleships.


The easiest fix would be to limit the rattle to 2 drones of ANY size. Then apply the same 275% bonus to them equally. So even with 50 bandwidth you can only field 2 light drones. Make the bonus apply to e-war and logi drones as well if needed, but I think e-war drones in general need an overhaul.


That was what was accomplished in my initial suggestion of inflating the bandwidth requirement of smaller drones on the Rattlesnake. I realise now I screwed up the math though, it should be 5x for light and 2.5x for Medium. I think it would be more reasonable to preserve the larger effective flight sizes, though I would go with 12 effective lights or 10 effective mediums, though simply porting the bonuses directly from the smaller hulls works.

Even just bonusing the smaller drones so you get the same performance out of the lower classes without the 2 drone limit (a 140% light drone bonus for 12 effective, I think) would be fine.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#817 - 2014-04-18 15:10:40 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


Errrrm, how about you drop a mobile depot, refit to deal with the ceptors, RLML's seems as the snake gets a damage bonus to ALL missiles (Therm/Kin), or refit with neuts, cap them out, MJD out of range and warp the **** out. And if you start saying "Blah, blah but ceptors can point me outside of neut range" well, yeah. But they have to SCRAMBLE you to actually tackle you because of MJD's.

BS's are extremely easy to keep safe in anoms/DED sites.

Stop being a tool.

You made that "sound" so simple I actually had to read it twice.

- Bonus or not, heavy missiles won't hit ceptors well enough to be worth using without web and scram. Damage bonus does nothing for damage application and that is heavy missiles downfall.

- Refitting in an anom?? Seriously, have you ever run a nulsec anom where you can take the time to refit to fight off neuts while still tanking the anom.

- Mjd you jump 100 km, Ceptor does between 7000 and 8000 m/s, Snake takes 11.89 seconds to align (with max skills), unless you are aligned when you hit the mjd they easily catch you before you can warp. Take the time to align before hitting the mjd, you'll probably be dead or close to it before you get the chance.

- Ceptors hitting anoms use both long point and scrams and travel in numbers, or at least the ones who want to get kills do. The current snake could tank them while picking them off with light drones and calling for help.. The new snake - dies.

Your theory is a little like the on paper DPS from eft everyone is so fond of.. Looks great but is not real.



If you can't keep yourself safe in an anomaly that's your issue. There is a trick... stay aligned.

Also, Snake can use RLML's bonused too. Those will hurt ceptors and as I said, neuts hurt ceptors too. they want to scram you they've got to enter neut range.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#818 - 2014-04-18 15:13:14 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:
Won't the rattlesnake perform much nicer if it had more damage coming out of the drones and less out of the missiles?

That way you actually gain something from being limited to 2 heavy drones. Which currently perform exactly the same as 5 normally bonused heavy drones. Even the combined hitpoints of all drones in space remains the same.

And than make it so that the missiles replace the role that the light drones used to have. It has a nice bonus to every missile launcher in the game so the versatility is very high. But people generally don't like depending so much on missiles unless they are bonused for projection of any sort.

Still as it is the ship seems nice and powerfull in a way but it doesn't feel like it is continuing the power that the worm and gila have.


Apologies, I have slept through much of this thread since the frigate and cruiser threads focused heavily on the implications in the battleships. It seemed like more of the same.

I didnt realize that the missile bonus applied to all missiles rather than just the particular hull appropriate ones. Does it become worthwhile to fit a snake with light (or rapid light) launchers for frigate control? Range would be short by battleship standards, but odd as it seems that may actually be interesting. I could see sacrificing Missile DPS for application to small targets.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#819 - 2014-04-18 15:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Ashley Animus wrote:
Won't the rattlesnake perform much nicer if it had more damage coming out of the drones and less out of the missiles?

That way you actually gain something from being limited to 2 heavy drones. Which currently perform exactly the same as 5 normally bonused heavy drones. Even the combined hitpoints of all drones in space remains the same.

And than make it so that the missiles replace the role that the light drones used to have. It has a nice bonus to every missile launcher in the game so the versatility is very high. But people generally don't like depending so much on missiles unless they are bonused for projection of any sort.

Still as it is the ship seems nice and powerfull in a way but it doesn't feel like it is continuing the power that the worm and gila have.



True. It is better to have 5 drones. When you have to pull one drone back or a drone gets webbed, that is 50% of your drone dps.

These changes gimp the Rattlesnake severely. Why does CCP think it is okay to **** people over like this? The pirate faction battleships take a very long time to fully train for. The strength of Guristas was their versatility and now the devs apparently want to drastically change them and give them a niche application and gimp them by taking away their large drone bay and missile velocity bonus. Disgusting way to treat your long time customers.

It would be neat to have some ships with super drones but Guristas shouldn't be so drastically changed to do that. Build onto the Guristas strenght, their versatility. All that need change on a Rattlesnake is an extra mid or low slot with that extra high.

On-paper DPS centric thinking is destroying Guristas.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#820 - 2014-04-18 15:21:54 UTC
You will be pulling the drones back less often.

I am very disappointed the bonus isnt bigger, I had hoped for at least 8 effective, and expected 9 or 10 to make up for the increased vunerability to ewar effects.