These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#781 - 2014-04-18 11:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
"CCP Rise" wrote:
I didn't say serious, I said significant. It wouldn't just be a damage increase. It would be a heavier importance placed on a required skill, changes to fitting balance, changes in ammo consumption, change in fitting cost, potential effects on damage output and/or alpha. It's not unsolvable or something, it's just a lot of things that need to be accounted for and we don't think it's worth it in this case.


Ok it's seems ,u've quite misunderstood what we we're asking for ...So i'll try to explain you .

-By asking for turret symmetry we we're asking for a modification of the 3d model of the hull ,currently the turret layout is shaped as a double I ,meaning we have 4 slot board to board .Concerning this problem who make the ships looking cluncky and somewhat strange u could implement bridges deck between the two part of the hull,maybe a cone shaped form like the front face of the cynabal that would give a coherence .
The finality would be to have a diamond shapped pattern for the turret .

Now concerning the second problem ,the viability of the Machariel on his everyday usage ,and why we are asking for a modification of the bonus to the profit of a 6T 7h 5m 7l + a 37.5% Rof or damage ... They're is currently only 3 usage of the machariel :
-Pve level 4 missioning boat or anomaly ratting for the most ambitious
-Anecdotic use in Pvp
-Incursion as one of the two competitive snipping plateform

In pve missionning 99 % percent of the machariel are fitted with AC 800 mm + xlarge SB or LSB ,so the change we asking for wont change anything in this part maybe some fit we ll be easier .But honnestly there is nothing game breaking here
Now the last 1 % are people using 1400 mm and the changes to the layout will be a real life changer,nothing game breaking but we could hope to see more fit using 1400 mm as they re already a species in danger ...

In pvp u could turn the things upside down ,thats wont change a thing except maybe a double plated fit could emerge but that would go against the natural quality of the hull .

Now in incursion if u maintain the current change to the nightmare without balancing the thing for the machariel he will dissapear from incursion as he won't keep up in term of tracking and dps .There is already a 150 dps gape between the two of them in favor of the nightmare at same range and twice the tracking ,we barrely keep up with NM by rigging a t2 a large projectile burst arreator at the cost of + 10 % Pg cost ,we have to plug a full genolution set with perfect rigging skill+ +6 pg implant for it. on the otherside nightmare pilot have no concern on fitting cost .

U 've took the decision to add another low to the nightmare. Fine but what will happen, most of them will fit another TE and remove a TC then add another invul or resist hardener . Here start the funny part... resist capped with 600 dps at 160 KM + with more than twice the tracking of a machariel , 3000 pg and 400 cpu free + 2 utility med and 2 utility high .

I don't know if in iceland u call that balanced , but we re i am we call that OVERPOWERED .So now i told u my concern and here are my questions .

Do you intend to remove the Machariel from incursions?
Do you intend to make of the nightmare the only snipping platform in them ?

I would be glad if u respond to these concerns .
Morukk Nuamzzar
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#782 - 2014-04-18 11:09:01 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:

U 've took the decision to add another low to the nightmare. Fine but what will happen, most of them will fit another TE and remove a TC then add another invul or resist hardener . Here start the funny part... resist capped with 600 dps at 160 KM + with more than twice the tracking of a machariel , 3000 pg and 400 cpu free + 2 utility med and 2 utility high .

I don't know if in iceland u call that balanced , but we re i am we call that OVERPOWERED.

Machariel was OVERPOWERED before, now it's not so much. There is another. Learn to live with that. Thank you.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#783 - 2014-04-18 11:11:51 UTC
Morukk Nuamzzar wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:

U 've took the decision to add another low to the nightmare. Fine but what will happen, most of them will fit another TE and remove a TC then add another invul or resist hardener . Here start the funny part... resist capped with 600 dps at 160 KM + with more than twice the tracking of a machariel , 3000 pg and 400 cpu free + 2 utility med and 2 utility high .

I don't know if in iceland u call that balanced , but we re i am we call that OVERPOWERED.

Machariel was OVERPOWERED before, now it's not so much. There is another. Learn to live with that. Thank you.

Prove me that currently the mach is overpowered with numbers ,would u ?
Rumors aren't fact learn to live with that .
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#784 - 2014-04-18 11:13:55 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
If the drone control range is that important just use a rig. Ugh


Oh thank you, i never thought of that, all the hours working out suitable balanced fits, maximising the features and advantages of this ship, and I did not see your wonderful solution that Does not **** up my shields at all!


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#785 - 2014-04-18 11:35:48 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
stuff


I am not rise but as Inc FC myself:

The sniper spots are already set up the way they are because of the ranges of machs, not the range of NMs, they will not change therefore the extra range is not as important as most people believe. Also the Mach is inferior for raw DPS purpose, everybody knows that, the reason you need them is to win contests with the huge alpha on armor and structure hits or to have ships that can enter the next pocket quicker, starting sooner to do dps and that doesn't change you still need a lot of machariel on grid if you want win contests in HQ fleets.

I do actually agree that the mach could use more power grid.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#786 - 2014-04-18 11:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
Quote:


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?


Drone range rigs give a -10 % Cpu he wont have as much room to fit hardener on it especially with an added launcher who will use 11 cpu more than a drone range module
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#787 - 2014-04-18 11:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
The Djego wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
stuff


I am not rise but as Inc FC myself:

The sniper spots are already set up the way they are because of the ranges of machs, not the range of NMs, they will not change therefore the extra range is not as important as most people believe. Also the Mach is inferior for raw DPS purpose, everybody knows that, the reason you need them is to win contests with the huge alpha on armor and structure hits or to have ships that can enter the next pocket quicker, starting sooner to do dps and that doesn't change you still need a lot of machariel on grid if you want win contests in HQ fleets.

I do actually agree that the mach could use more power grid.


U mean could have more power or use less power grid ,i hope.
Honnestly range wasnt my concern ,mach are already in a tought spot dps wise why increasing even more that.With the current nerf to mobility honnestly do u feel mach will prevail against a nano NM ? Honnestly thats a double combo NM coming more and more on our toes and us losing more and more dps comparativly . i'm sry idoesnt mean to be rude , but i ve the strong feeling that ur opinion could change sooner than u think once u look deeper in it .
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#788 - 2014-04-18 11:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Last Wolf wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:


You'll be getting around 780 Dps with 3 DDA from Ogres, so yes if you can get another 700+ Dps out of 5 launchers, 2 BCU and 50% bonus, you will have a 1500 dps battleship.. Chances are though - you won't.
It will be a fine juggling act for Dps - drop a DDA for a BCU, you drop 103 Dps to gain 89. Drop either for a low slot drone tracking link, you are dropping a considerable amount of overall (paper) Dps.


If the Raven/Navy Scorp/Navy Raven/Golem can hit 900+ with cruise and 8 effective launchers, I'm sure the rattle can do 700 easily with 7.5 effective launchers.

Of course it will be able to get 700 Dps out of missiles BUT it will be a the expense of Drone Dps, on what funnily enough is supposed to be a Guristas Drone Boat.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#789 - 2014-04-18 11:46:41 UTC
so, CCP Rise... on a scale of 1 to 10 how terrified are you now that capitals and super capitals are next on your list of things to re-balance?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#790 - 2014-04-18 12:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Myrthiis wrote:
Quote:


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?


Drone range rigs give a -10 % Cpu he wont have as much room to fit hardener on it especially with an added launcher who will use 11 cpu more than a drone range module


I've no idea what his fit is, or even what he's using it for, because he's too busy complaining rather than giving details, but if we're talking generic PVE, it should be entirely possible to free up some CPU with cheap faction mods. The faction DDAs will presumably be low-CPU, too. Also, that drone rig is -6% CPU with a little effort.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#791 - 2014-04-18 12:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Gypsio III wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
Quote:


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?


Drone range rigs give a -10 % Cpu he wont have as much room to fit hardener on it especially with an added launcher who will use 11 cpu more than a drone range module


I've no idea what his fit is, or even what he's using it for, because he's too busy complaining rather than giving details, but if we're talking generic PVE, it should be entirely possible to free up some CPU with cheap faction mods. The faction DDAs will presumably be low-CPU, too. Also, that drone rig is -6% CPU with a little effort.



Please read some of the posts, and you might have a better idea?

Here is one
Try reading it

Request to ccp Rise

Ps i am not asking you for either fitting advice or the benefit of your vast experience.
I am pointing out an issue that has become apparent when looking at the way the new bonuses apply, I do not require your permission to fly a rattlesnake, and I do not demand the right to approve the ships you fly and the fittings you choose to make the most of them.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#792 - 2014-04-18 12:15:18 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
Quote:


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?


Drone range rigs give a -10 % Cpu he wont have as much room to fit hardener on it especially with an added launcher who will use 11 cpu more than a drone range module


I've no idea what his fit is, or even what he's using it for, because he's too busy complaining rather than giving details, but if we're talking generic PVE, it should be entirely possible to free up some CPU with cheap faction mods. The faction DDAs will presumably be low-CPU, too. Also, that drone rig is -6% CPU with a little effort.



Please read some of the posts, and you might have a better idea?

Here is one
Try reading it

Request to ccp Rise


That post gives no information about your fit or what you use it for except to imply that the 85-100 km window is important to you. Which we already knew. Most of it is just generic whining.

You're going to need to make more effort if you want to be taken seriously.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#793 - 2014-04-18 12:15:24 UTC
Hint look on the market the price of DDA faction and other drone utilities :)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#794 - 2014-04-18 12:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Gypsio III wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
Quote:


Oh, you're using your rigslots for tank? Strange. Are you talking about L5 missions or something?


Drone range rigs give a -10 % Cpu he wont have as much room to fit hardener on it especially with an added launcher who will use 11 cpu more than a drone range module


I've no idea what his fit is, or even what he's using it for, because he's too busy complaining rather than giving details, but if we're talking generic PVE, it should be entirely possible to free up some CPU with cheap faction mods. The faction DDAs will presumably be low-CPU, too. Also, that drone rig is -6% CPU with a little effort.



Please read some of the posts, and you might have a better idea?

Here is one
Try reading it

Request to ccp Rise


That post gives no information about your fit or what you use it for except to imply that the 85-100 km window is important to you. Which we already knew. Most of it is just generic whining.

You're going to need to make more effort if you want to be taken seriously.



Possibly you stopped reading early?

"Ps i am not asking you for either fitting advice or the benefit of your vast experience.
I am pointing out an issue that has become apparent when looking at the way the new bonuses apply, I do not require your permission to fly a rattlesnake, and I do not demand the right to approve the ships you fly and the fittings you choose to make the most of them."

Show others the same respect!

This forum is for people to pass on comments to the developers, to enable them to take all into consideration before finally settling on the balance of the ships.

It is not here to be a mouthpiece for the fact that you think others do not do it right! And then complain that they should give you more information to make a better troll!

In issue has been raised to CCP rise, he probably has more experience than you, even though I am sure you think otherwise.

Give CCP rise the opportunity to answer rather than spouting your opinions that anything you disagree with must be wrong?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#795 - 2014-04-18 12:18:45 UTC
No, that was the "generic whining" I was referring to. Nobody will take you seriously without details of fit and use to support your complaint.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#796 - 2014-04-18 12:21:13 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
Hint look on the market the price of DDA faction and other drone utilities :)


They're not listed on the market because they're not in game yet. Roll

Quote:
New drone modules

Finally, we are rounding out the collection of drone upgrade modules by introducing low slot Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancers and faction versions of the Drone Damage Amplifier and Drone Navigation Computer modules, and adding more faction versions of the Omnidirectional Tracking Link module. The faction modules will be available in Gallente Navy and Amarr Navy variants (available in both normal and FW LP stores) as well as Guristas and Rogue Drone variants available as loot drops. More details about these modules will be available at a later date.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#797 - 2014-04-18 12:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Honestly I lose faith in humanity if it is so hard to realise that a bonus that DEPENDS on reducing the capabilities of a ship might be an oversight?

And you want to argue fits to show how much exactly can be clawed back? By nerfing the ship in other ways??

Dear god.

Do not EVER go into marketing a product!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#798 - 2014-04-18 12:41:37 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Honestly I lose faith in humanity if it is so hard to realise that a bonus that DEPENDS on reducing the capabilities of a ship might be an oversight?


I don't think it is an oversight, I think it's deliberate, to focus the ship on shorter ranges. It fits in with the removal of the missile velocity bonus, after all.

Why would it be an oversight? And even if it was, does it matter if your fit can be rejigged? So, back to the detail of your complaint?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#799 - 2014-04-18 12:52:54 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:


Errrrm, how about you drop a mobile depot, refit to deal with the ceptors, RLML's seems as the snake gets a damage bonus to ALL missiles (Therm/Kin), or refit with neuts, cap them out, MJD out of range and warp the **** out. And if you start saying "Blah, blah but ceptors can point me outside of neut range" well, yeah. But they have to SCRAMBLE you to actually tackle you because of MJD's.

BS's are extremely easy to keep safe in anoms/DED sites.

Stop being a tool.

You made that "sound" so simple I actually had to read it twice.

- Bonus or not, heavy missiles won't hit ceptors well enough to be worth using without web and scram. Damage bonus does nothing for damage application and that is heavy missiles downfall.

- Refitting in an anom?? Seriously, have you ever run a nulsec anom where you can take the time to refit to fight off neuts while still tanking the anom.

- Mjd you jump 100 km, Ceptor does between 7000 and 8000 m/s, Snake takes 11.89 seconds to align (with max skills), unless you are aligned when you hit the mjd they easily catch you before you can warp. Take the time to align before hitting the mjd, you'll probably be dead or close to it before you get the chance.

- Ceptors hitting anoms use both long point and scrams and travel in numbers, or at least the ones who want to get kills do. The current snake could tank them while picking them off with light drones and calling for help.. The new snake - dies.

Your theory is a little like the on paper DPS from eft everyone is so fond of.. Looks great but is not real.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#800 - 2014-04-18 12:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


Errrrm, how about you drop a mobile depot, refit to deal with the ceptors, RLML's seems as the snake gets a damage bonus to ALL missiles (Therm/Kin), or refit with neuts, cap them out, MJD out of range and warp the **** out. And if you start saying "Blah, blah but ceptors can point me outside of neut range" well, yeah. But they have to SCRAMBLE you to actually tackle you because of MJD's.

BS's are extremely easy to keep safe in anoms/DED sites.

Stop being a tool.

You made that "sound" so simple I actually had to read it twice.

- Bonus or not, heavy missiles won't hit ceptors well enough to be worth using without web and scram. Damage bonus does nothing for damage application and that is heavy missiles downfall.

- Refitting in an anom?? Seriously, have you ever run a nulsec anom where you can take the time to refit to fight off neuts while still tanking the anom.

- Mjd you jump 100 km, Ceptor does between 7000 and 8000 m/s, Snake takes 11.89 seconds to align (with max skills), unless you are aligned when you hit the mjd they easily catch you before you can warp. Take the time to align before hitting the mjd, you'll probably be dead or close to it before you get the chance.

- Ceptors hitting anoms use both long point and scrams and travel in numbers, or at least the ones who want to get kills do. The current snake could tank them while picking them off with light drones and calling for help.. The new snake - dies.

Your theory is a little like the on paper DPS from eft everyone is so fond of.. Looks great but is not real.


^^^ totally correct^^^

Ideally the move to 2 super drones only works if the power of light drones in the ship still applies, that would be just under 200% on the Gila and 50% on the rattlesnake, damage and hitpoints ! then the move to superdrones would retain balance and still provide for the new play opportunities.

Without this the drone rebalance is incomplete, the worm is fine, as it can only effectively use lights so the problem is pre-fixed.

There's two issues with the rattlesnake, both incredibly easy to fix without changing balance, only when they are done will the rattlesnake hold it's head high with the other pirate ships, the Gila only has the one issue, but the light drone issue is a biggie!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE