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NERF Hisec?

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Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2014-04-18 08:15:20 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


Everything is constantly changing. Nothing is now how it use to be. EvE itself has changed. It's not what it use to be. Is it better or worse? That's open to interpretation, judged by the individuals who've experienced and reflect on them and how it is now.

Converting 19 High Security systems, or even the introduction of 19 brand new "ultra-sec" systems would not prevent anyone from not being able to participate in their already established playstyles, or desired playstyles within the confines of EvE's current limitations, from continuing to play the game how they see fit UNLESS they choose to enter the "ultra-sec" system, which would be their choice.

Introducing "Ultra-Sec" could be considered content addition. Not allowing it could be considered stifling CCPs potential additions of content to the EvE universe.


The issue that you miss is that by the design that the OP wants and intends, these systems will be teaming with perfectly safe production & mission grinding. That means that anyone would be foolish NOT to produce & sell there. Industry moves into ultra-sec. Before long, people call for it to expand. It does. Short term, more people play EVE...

The older player base, especially the UO veterans, sigh and leave, as they know what's coming. As ultra sec expands the economy slowly chokes, as the pvp players leave. Then the industrial players no longer have anyone to sell to, they begin to leave. The game dies... 2 years later there are 50-100K subs, rather than 500K.

Been there, done that. Have the T-Shirt. No thanks.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#182 - 2014-04-18 08:24:12 UTC
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:


Everything is constantly changing. Nothing is now how it use to be. EvE itself has changed. It's not what it use to be. Is it better or worse? That's open to interpretation, judged by the individuals who've experienced and reflect on them and how it is now.

Converting 19 High Security systems, or even the introduction of 19 brand new "ultra-sec" systems would not prevent anyone from not being able to participate in their already established playstyles, or desired playstyles within the confines of EvE's current limitations, from continuing to play the game how they see fit UNLESS they choose to enter the "ultra-sec" system, which would be their choice.

Introducing "Ultra-Sec" could be considered content addition. Not allowing it could be considered stifling CCPs potential additions of content to the EvE universe.


The issue that you miss is that by the design that the OP wants and intends, these systems will be teaming with perfectly safe production & mission grinding. That means that anyone would be foolish NOT to produce & sell there. Industry moves into ultra-sec. Before long, people call for it to expand. It does. Short term, more people play EVE...

The older player base, especially the UO veterans, sigh and leave, as they know what's coming. As ultra sec expands the economy slowly chokes, as the pvp players leave. Then the industrial players no longer have anyone to sell to, they begin to leave. The game dies... 2 years later there are 50-100K subs, rather than 500K.

Been there, done that. Have the T-Shirt. No thanks.



These systems don't even exist yet and it's already magically decided that it would be where everyone wants to go. It's only your opinion that people would view "ultra sec" as the "place to be". Right now, High sec exists, yet many people populate Low and Null.

Make it so no POS's are allowed to be placed in Ultra-Sec, then consider the limited number of manufacture slots available in every system in the game right now, then consider all this imaginary desire resulting in competition, and come to the conclusion that many, much more than you're alluding to, would still want to maintain their current industrial centers in systems that aren't "Ultra-Sec".

Also, this suggestion is not like Trammel in the sense that it's not cloning the entirety of EvE to house people who wish to avoid non-consensual PvP. It's designating a small percentage of territory within the already existing game world, a small percentage of territory which is subject to it's own economic limitations just as every already existing system in EvE is right now.

Your expressed opinion appears to be an exaggeration, a hint to an extreme that could be easily avoided with some consideration of balancing by CCP.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#183 - 2014-04-18 08:30:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Wait... didn't they lobby to have one of their largest income streams nerfed for the benefit of the game as a whole? You know, the Technetium thing?

Meanwhile, the MTU comes with a bit of emergent gameplay, and the carebear tears cause a patch to the "exploit" within a matter of days.

Yeah, I'd say it's fairly clear how all of that works.

You mean the one that they simply replaced with R64 income and destroyed a few other alliances who were relying on the density of Tech to survive beneath the goons attention, that 'nerf'
And the exploit which was an exploit since even drones on passive would occasionally engage, and was caused by poor UI information requiring you to have an encyclopediac knowledge of exactly what a certain undocumented function did.

Yea..... Sure.

We know how it works, you obfuscate and bury anyone who dares to point out the double talk and the behind the back dealing you pull while shouting and screaming about anything that goes against you and using the emotive appeal of evil carebears to get others on your side.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#184 - 2014-04-18 08:31:46 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


These systems don't even exist yet and it's already magically decided that it would be where everyone wants to go. It's only your opinion that people would view "ultra sec" as the "place to be". Right now, High sec exists, yet many people populate Low and Null.

Make it so no POS's are allowed to be placed in Ultra-Sec, then consider the limited number of manufacture slots available in every system in the game right now, then consider all this imaginary desire resulting in competition, and come to the conclusion that many, much more than you're alluding to, would still want to maintain their current industrial centers in systems that aren't "Ultra-Sec".

Also, this suggestion is not like Trammel in the sense that it's not cloning the entirety of EvE to house people who wish to avoid non-consensual PvP. It's designating a small percentage of territory within the already existing game world, a small percentage of territory which is subject to it's own economic limitations just as every already existing system in EvE is right now.

Your expressed opinion appears to be an exaggeration, a hint to an extreme that could be easily avoided with some consideration of balancing by CCP.


wtf, once this is implemented. what prevents people like you and the op to ask even more, like to increase the manufactruing slots or whatever in this ultra-sec.?


Just Add Water
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2014-04-18 08:34:03 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


These systems don't even exist yet and it's already magically decided that it would be where everyone wants to go. It's only your opinion that people would view "ultra sec" as the "place to be". Right now, High sec exists, yet many people populate Low and Null.

Make it so no POS's are allowed to be placed in Ultra-Sec, then consider the limited number of manufacture slots available in every system in the game right now, then consider all this imaginary desire resulting in competition, and come to the conclusion that many, much more than you're alluding to, would still want to maintain their current industrial centers in systems that aren't "Ultra-Sec".

Also, this suggestion is not like Trammel in the sense that it's not cloning the entirety of EvE to house people who wish to avoid non-consensual PvP. It's designating a small percentage of territory within the already existing game world, a small percentage of territory which is subject to it's own economic limitations just as every already existing system in EvE is right now.

Your expressed opinion appears to be an exaggeration, a hint to an extreme that could be easily avoided with some consideration of balancing by CCP.


Manufacturing slots are going away. As we don't know the details of how it will work afterwards yet, it's hard to judge that... A 14% premium on production of an item, where it cannot be harmed in any way, under any circumstance, might be acceptable to many.

Also, the markets would probably move to ultra-sec, unless it was positioned horribly. Why go to Jita, when you can go to a 100% safe system?

And, what you are missing, is that it wasn't Trammel itself which killed UO. It was the process that it started.

If you've ever done your research on EVE... you probably know that the people who founded EVE, founded it based on what they missed of the glory days of UO, before Trammel.

Most of the design decisions which encourage harshness were based on their experiences there.

What you suggest is exactly what killed UO. To the T. It's just a PVP free shard... What harm can it do?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#186 - 2014-04-18 08:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


We know how it works, you obfuscate and bury anyone who dares to point out the double talk and the behind the back dealing you pull while shouting and screaming about anything that goes against you and using the emotive appeal of evil carebears to get others on your side.


Meanwhile you ignore the fact that you and your ilk have been doing your best to legislate the way other people play the game out of existence.

And you cry and gnash your teeth at your scapegoat, trying to rally support against the group of players who happen to be the biggest. All the while attempting to defend the indefensible, people who want to play the game without being at the keyboard, people who refuse to even attempt to defend themselves, begging CCP to make the computer play the game for them.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#187 - 2014-04-18 08:38:50 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:


wtf, once this is implemented. what prevents people like you and the op to ask even more, like to increase the manufactruing slots or whatever in this ultra-sec.?




Nothing will ever stop OP and people like him to stop asking for more.

By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Your stance is counter to the very existence of these forums.
Do not talk, because talking leads to talking.
ctx2007
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2014-04-18 08:40:10 UTC
Does that mean we can't fart in hi sec anymore? Sad

You only realise you life has been a waste of time, when you wake up dead.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#189 - 2014-04-18 08:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Divine Entervention wrote:
So according to you, since everyone's specifically desired play style should be allowed to exist in any system, then you advocate having Mercoxit available in every system because a "Mercoxit Miner" who chooses his playstyle to be "only mine mercoxit" should be able to do his play style in any system.


No, that is not by any means what I meant.

However, if there is Mercoxit in a system, then he/she should absolutely have the choice to mine it.

Not limiting a persons choice is not the same as providing everything in every system.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#190 - 2014-04-18 08:40:31 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:


wtf, once this is implemented. what prevents people like you and the op to ask even more, like to increase the manufactruing slots or whatever in this ultra-sec.?




Nothing will ever stop OP and people like him to stop asking for more.

By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Your stance is counter to the very existence of these forums.
Do not talk, because talking leads to talking.


So, are you outright admitting that if you lot are given an inch, you will take a mile? That's a pretty good argument to not budge on even the slightest thing you people want.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#191 - 2014-04-18 08:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:


These systems don't even exist yet and it's already magically decided that it would be where everyone wants to go. It's only your opinion that people would view "ultra sec" as the "place to be". Right now, High sec exists, yet many people populate Low and Null.

Make it so no POS's are allowed to be placed in Ultra-Sec, then consider the limited number of manufacture slots available in every system in the game right now, then consider all this imaginary desire resulting in competition, and come to the conclusion that many, much more than you're alluding to, would still want to maintain their current industrial centers in systems that aren't "Ultra-Sec".

Also, this suggestion is not like Trammel in the sense that it's not cloning the entirety of EvE to house people who wish to avoid non-consensual PvP. It's designating a small percentage of territory within the already existing game world, a small percentage of territory which is subject to it's own economic limitations just as every already existing system in EvE is right now.

Your expressed opinion appears to be an exaggeration, a hint to an extreme that could be easily avoided with some consideration of balancing by CCP.


Manufacturing slots are going away. As we don't know the details of how it will work afterwards yet, it's hard to judge that... A 14% premium on production of an item, where it cannot be harmed in any way, under any circumstance, might be acceptable to many.

Also, the markets would probably move to ultra-sec, unless it was positioned horribly. Why go to Jita, when you can go to a 100% safe system?

And, what you are missing, is that it wasn't Trammel itself which killed UO. It was the process that it started.

If you've ever done your research on EVE... you probably know that the people who founded EVE, founded it based on what they missed of the glory days of UO, before Trammel.

Most of the design decisions which encourage harshness were based on their experiences there.

What you suggest is exactly what killed UO. To the T. It's just a PVP free shard... What harm can it do?


Then increase the price of manufacturing in Ultra Sec systems to bring it in balance with the current economic model. All these reasons and points against no introduction of an Ultra Sec are merely representations of your not wanting this game style people seem to desire to exist, while the implementation of it could exist in a manner that has no direct negative impact on all already existing playstyles of EvE.

The introduction of 19 Ultra Sec systems would not prevent anyone from continuing to play EvE in a manner how they see fit.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#192 - 2014-04-18 08:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
Divine Entervention wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:


wtf, once this is implemented. what prevents people like you and the op to ask even more, like to increase the manufactruing slots or whatever in this ultra-sec.?




Nothing will ever stop OP and people like him to stop asking for more.

By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Your stance is counter to the very existence of these forums.
Do not talk, because talking leads to talking.


lol, our context here is about the fail ultrasec...

you can suggest as long as it is NOT a non-sense like this...

infact i want to post and suggest about the "commando" pants, why in the name that is good and glory, it doesn't have a belt?! it should have a BELT so that when you tucked in the "sterling" shirt it would look snappy and smart!

Just Add Water
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#193 - 2014-04-18 08:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Divine Entervention wrote:
By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Rubbish, he didn't suggest that at all.

Suggestions however should be balanced and not just selfish whines by people who find the game too hard.

If it's too hard, *******. No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game.

EDIT: Awesome again. Arse and Fuckoff not censored. I've self censored the fuckoff in this post though. :)

EDIT 2: I seem to be in a bad mood today. Good thread to be in for that.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#194 - 2014-04-18 08:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
sorry wrong post

Just Add Water
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#195 - 2014-04-18 08:52:06 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Rubbish, he didn't suggest that at all.

Suggestions however should be balanced and not just selfish whines by people who find the game too hard.

If it's too hard, *******. No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game.



Which I have not done.

Also, by your own statement, "No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game", it could be applied that No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game having Ultra-Security systems.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#196 - 2014-04-18 08:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Nat Silverguard wrote:


lol, our context here is about the fail ultrasec...

you can suggest as long as it is NOT a non-sense like this...

infact i want to post and suggest about the "commando" pants, why in the name that is good and glory, it doesn't have a belt?! it should have a BELT so that when you tucked in the "sterling" shirt it would look snappy and smart!


It is only an opinion that the introduction of Ultra Sec is "non-sense". It is only an opinion that ultrasec is "fail".

The difference between our posts is my statements are geared towards fostering the discussion of ultrasec as a legitimate topic worthy of discussion, while yours are geared towards promoting your opinions of what you feel EvE should and shouldn't be, and the condemnation of ideas and opinions you disagree with.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#197 - 2014-04-18 08:57:54 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
By your logic, no suggestions should be allowed, because if people ever suggest anything, they might continue to make suggestions. No suggestions to prevent future suggestions.

Rubbish, he didn't suggest that at all.

Suggestions however should be balanced and not just selfish whines by people who find the game too hard.

If it's too hard, *******. No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game.



Which I have not done.

Also, by your own statement, "No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game", it could be applied that No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game having Ultra-Security systems.


what's this non-sense logic again? nobody said that nobody will NOT cope up with ultrasec, it will be actually in reverse, ALL people including me will have an alt and partake in that ultrasec. When everybody had generated ALOT of isk and nothing/less to use it for then that's the time people will be bored with eve and starts to unsub...

Just Add Water
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2014-04-18 08:58:05 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


Then increase the price of manufacturing in Ultra Sec systems to bring it in balance with the current economic model. All these reasons and points against no introduction of an Ultra Sec are merely representations of your not wanting this game style people seem to desire to exist, while the implementation of it could exist in a manner that has no direct negative impact on all already existing playstyles of EvE.

The introduction of 19 Ultra Sec systems would not prevent anyone from continuing to play EvE in a manner how they see fit.


A player who produces completely free from any consequence throws off the sandbox. I am sorry that you can't see that, but oh well.

And as far as negative consequence, miners everywhere else would have their income dropped by the legion of extremely relaxed, full yield Mackinaws chewing out endless mounds of Veldspar you want to provide them.

The most commonly needed mineral in EVE will drop to 1ISK, as a horde of AFK miners blot out the sun! Why use barges? Just get a Indy with 1 miner, and check on it once every few hours... It will be fine sitting there... One or two ships with aggressive drones could cover a horde of Indy's from belt rats.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#199 - 2014-04-18 08:59:25 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Which I have not done.

Also, by your own statement, "No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game", it could be applied that No one will miss someone too weak minded to cope with the mechanisms of the game having Ultra-Security systems.


Not you specifically. I think you just like to discuss things and that's all good, even when you are mostly on the opposite side to positions I commonly take.

On the rest, those who gank will adjust to whatever change CCP introduces. They always have.

That doesn't mean that everyone should sit by quietly and accept all suggestions without raising a protest to them.

It's quite fine to call out an idea for it's complete stupidity, while still accepting that others will continue to make suggestions designed only to suit their personal self interest.

Discussion has no downside, and it's absolutely necessary from all sides in an argument. CCP does seem to listen to the community on many issues, so staying quiet isn't the way to help them see where the balance should sit.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#200 - 2014-04-18 08:59:53 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:


what's this non-sense logic again? nobody said that nobody will NOT cope up with ultrasec, it will be actually in reverse, ALL people including me will have an alt and partake in that ultrasec. When everybody had generated ALOT of isk and nothing/less to use it for then that's the time people will be bored with eve and starts to unsub...


If that's the case, then to me it sounds as though Ultra-Sec is an aspect of EvE you would like to participate in, because you say you would go out of your way to participate in it.

If you make the choice to participate in EvE Ultra-Sec and then arrive at the conclusion where you feel EvE is no longer worth participating in even while High, Low, Null, and wormhole space exists, that's a result of your own actions. It's your fault.