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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#441 - 2011-12-01 17:11:49 UTC
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#442 - 2011-12-01 17:25:14 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


<3

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

mkint
#443 - 2011-12-01 17:35:51 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

tl;dr
we realized 2 years later that PI was an incredibly stupid idea to begin with, as it broke one of the biggest isk sinks in the game. Since we at CCP don't like to admit mistakes or to really fix such mistakes the way they should be fixed, we are adding back in the old seed price concept AND making it a soul crushing grind. Enjoy one of the worst game mechanics being made even worse.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Mechnom
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#444 - 2011-12-01 17:37:49 UTC
well i dont care too much about the taxes. that simply will raise the prices for pos'es / t2 mods / cap. parts as the prices for pi comodities will rise.

i do care about there not beeing a customs office and the pain it takes to export vie the command center.

what should be adressed (dirly) is the way to export stuff from a planet where there is no poco. dont expect small alliances to put one up themselves. as those affore mentioned raids will...


so my adjustment ideas would be:

1. limit the tax rate in empire lowsec to 20% - 25%

AND


2. when a poco is not rebuild within 20 hours a new one is set up (i.e a interbus one)

or

2. make planetary launches possible via the spaceport

or

2. make the storage capacity bigger in the command center


AND: make launches/export possible if not in solar system. well i assume it is just a bug, but one never knows...
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#445 - 2011-12-01 17:45:12 UTC
On your announcement, you might want to fix your link. Only God knows where it is trying to go as-is.
Abramul
Canadian Forces Corp
United 4 Nations
#446 - 2011-12-01 18:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Abramul
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes."
http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

Mind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged.

If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from:
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit

+edit:
I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#447 - 2011-12-01 18:13:26 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.


Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc.

The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything.

Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive.
Serceyes
Doomheim
#448 - 2011-12-01 18:21:26 UTC
Why state in the dev blog that taxes will be double say for high sec when they end up nothing of the sort and in some cases are 100 times higher they were before.

Very misleading.

People assume that you know what you are talking about !!!

And can therefore only conclude that you don't !!!
Jaggins
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2011-12-01 18:21:29 UTC
If the taxes are hard, please stop doing PI so I can make even more ISK.

The market will find prices that incentivise creative solutions. Think low sec cartels, actually defending PCO's, etc...

I would say shame on the whiners, but they are fairly entertaining in a sad pitiful way.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#450 - 2011-12-01 18:29:17 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


You own this owns

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#451 - 2011-12-01 18:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi

All my fives. Thank you for holding the line on this important issue. Making PI taxes worthwhile is a crucial step for the future of both alliances and DUST.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
gargars
Willco Inc.
#452 - 2011-12-01 18:34:44 UTC
So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:

"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"

Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?

Nowhere. And why not?

Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.


CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#453 - 2011-12-01 18:39:31 UTC
This is an excellent change and will go a long way to making PI profitable and worth the risk. I appreciate you guys doing the right thing for game balance and ignoring the hi-sec complaints.

Thank you CCP.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#454 - 2011-12-01 18:39:36 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.


Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc.

The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything.

Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive.


oh the tears, this is so good, please post more

I have the same numbers of cc in 6 chars and I get 2B each month (in low sec), so you are doing something very wrong!!!

Just to give you and idea of the impact, these new taxes cut my profits in 350M each month, so I'm going to wait until the prices go up to cover for these new production costs before I sell my stuff. Prices will go up, so nobody will loose nothing, the only diference is that you have to put some money upfront until you get the product in the market and sell it.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#455 - 2011-12-01 18:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sutha Moliko
Crucible is introducing something new that can lead to conflict of interest.To control a planet is something a single podpilot cannot do.

There will be war.
POCO will be put in reinforced state.
Corporations must join their forces and defend their interest, especially in low-sec.

Of course, base prices used to calculate taxes must be under control of CCP. Everyone can see the spiral if base prices are related to the market value of each product.

I used to hate the new taxes, now I can see the bold move from CCP.

Nice Smile
Turk Jaxor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#456 - 2011-12-01 18:42:25 UTC
I run a small research corp in high sec - this is going to seriously hurt us and others like us who were only doing PI to offset the tremendous costs of running a POS in the first place.

Time will tell if we can afford to keep them up. If we can't I'll probably close this account - why pay for something I can't use?

Doubling the price would have been acceptable - 100x the price is a freakin joke - and a bad one at that.

PI already sucked ass - all you've done here CCP is make a bad game feature even more unplayable. Don't you guys learn from your mistakes? I don't think you'll see raging like what happened with the Noble Exchange, but I'm equally sure all you've done is **** off a large portion of the player base.
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2011-12-01 18:43:59 UTC
Good change, makes PI less of a lone wolf industrialist pinata and now brings it into the realm of attack/defense co-op play. Rather than make PI more irrelevant this might make it actaully more absorbing as it will link to other parts of the game and other play styles. The increased difficuly means that the brave and clever will be rewarded and the weak and stupid will get stomped. Sounds like Eve working as intended to me! Well in you Devs!
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#458 - 2011-12-01 18:44:17 UTC
Turk Jaxor wrote:
I run a small research corp in high sec - this is going to seriously hurt us and others like us who were only doing PI to offset the tremendous costs of running a POS in the first place.

Time will tell if we can afford to keep them up. If we can't I'll probably close this account - why pay for something I can't use?

Doubling the price would have been acceptable - 100x the price is a freakin joke - and a bad one at that.

PI already sucked ass - all you've done here CCP is make a bad game feature even more unplayable. Don't you guys learn from your mistakes? I don't think you'll see raging like what happened with the Noble Exchange, but I'm equally sure all you've done is **** off a large portion of the player base.


Consider buying the resources from cheap 0.0 PI planets and helping us pay our sov costs.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#459 - 2011-12-01 18:45:23 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


Thank you CCP Guard, but we already knew they did something stupid on purpose.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Rek Esket
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2011-12-01 18:47:42 UTC
gargars wrote:
So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:

"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"

Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?

Nowhere. And why not?

Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.


They did tell us about it, that wiki article he linked was updated at least a week before the expansion went live. It is hardly CCP's fault that you couldn't understand the implications.