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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#741 - 2014-04-17 18:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I know it is fun for the people who like to stir things up to claim people are demanding the ship is overpowered..

So lets cut through all the trolling and bullshit.

CCP rise has already said that the rattlesnake is getting more power, thank you for that.
Am I being greedy and asking for more power....? No i am not asking for 1 DPS more than he has promised.
Are we asking for additional functionality, no not one thing, if the bonuses are able to be used, then this will be an excellent rebalance.

What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)

Therefore to use this new power it is no longer possible to control drones beyond 80/85 km
Therefore it makes the use of the MJD a pain in the ass.
Therefore where the rattlesnake is actually used, the 6th launcher will not be fitted.
Therefore the promised bonus is given with one hand and taken away with the other.

To "pay" for this bonus we now have reduced missile range,
The loss of 2.5 effective lights
The loss of 2.5 effective mediums
The inability to use large 5 logi/ewar drones
The omnidirectional nerfs
Being an experement for the new drone mechanic (personally i like it)

This would all be fine if we were able to use the new bonused launcher.


Seem fair?

What is being asked for is to either increase the bonus to replace fitting an actual launcher. Exactly the same damage.
Or
Build 25km bonus to drone control range into the ship. No change to damage.
Or
An extra high slot ( i personally do not like is as it certainly can lead to unbalanced and overpowered fits)


So give the promised bonus without taking it away with the other hand.

A real late icelandic christmas gift.. Promised a new alternative to the space potato and opened the present to find a fedo Big smileShocked

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#742 - 2014-04-17 18:16:31 UTC
Hai fanfan wrote:
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
Fabulous Rod wrote:


because that would allow a target painter for torpedoes and give it back the damage it needs from the omni nerf.

It would then have 20 slots, the same as two other pirate faction BS.


Drone Boats are meant to have one less slot than equivalent ships.


drone boat? a t1 dominx is a much better drone boat than the rattlesnake; a raven is a better missile ship than the rattlesnake;
there is a reason why "split weapon system" is not a viable thing in eve;




The new rattlesnake has the same missile DPS as the raven. Only thing the raven has over it is the Velocity Bonus.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#743 - 2014-04-17 18:33:38 UTC
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. That Rattlesnake is ******...

Lose 50% of your drone dps when someone takes out one drone. Gallente bonuses for missile performance. I think the devs need a serious rethink for this one particular ship. Once again racial flavour has been kicked out of the window for the sake of making the numbers work.

You don't see 200+ rattlesnake fleets out in null. You do presently see 200+ Domi fleets, so as for drone assist and drone nerfing the devs are nerfing the wrong ship...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#744 - 2014-04-17 18:41:23 UTC
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#745 - 2014-04-17 18:59:05 UTC
Stein Backstabber wrote:
Remember the snake will have drones on steroids, they're going to be far harder to kill, more likely to be swapping in and out just with shield hits.



I think the new drone idea is actually really quite good, the extra damage bonus to the sentries will make a great difference.
The ship is so nearly right, just that trying to fit that launcher and losing The DLA Really really matters to many users. So therefore a wasted major bonus.

So simple to fix though.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#746 - 2014-04-17 19:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)


Let me be the first to welcome you to EVE Online, a game where you have to make decisions and compromises and where choices have consequences.

You can still fit your Rattlesnake the "old" way if you want, nobody's taking that away from you. They're giving you the additional choice of fitting it a new way.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#747 - 2014-04-17 19:09:52 UTC
If the drone control range is that important just use a rig. Ugh
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#748 - 2014-04-17 19:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Gypsio III wrote:
If the drone control range is that important just use a rig. Ugh


Oh thank you, i never thought of that, all the hours working out suitable balanced fits, maximising the features and advantages of this ship, and I did not see your wonderful solution that Does not **** up my shields at all!

*sarcasm*

A minor oversight nerfs this bonus to hell and back, a complete and utter waste, we want to bring this to CCP's attention, so......

I think I will wait for an intelligent answer from CCP rise instead if I have your permission too?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#749 - 2014-04-17 19:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)


Let me be the first to welcome you to EVE Online, a game where you have to make decisions and compromises and where choices have consequences.

You can still fit your Rattlesnake the "old" way if you want, nobody's taking that away from you. They're giving you the additional choice of fitting it a new way.



Great, really great constructive answer,

Of course I welcome disregarding the buff we have been promised and have waited for for an eternity, thank you for your insight and wisdom.

May i respectfully point you to a quote from my post?


"So lets cut through all the trolling and bullshit."

Too hard?

A minor oversight nerfs this bonus to hell and back, a total waste of all we have waited for, we want to bring this to CCP's attention, so......

I think I will wait for an intelligent answer from CCP rise instead if I have your permission?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#750 - 2014-04-17 19:23:30 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. That Rattlesnake is ******...

Lose 50% of your drone dps when someone takes out one drone. Gallente bonuses for missile performance. I think the devs need a serious rethink for this one particular ship. Once again racial flavour has been kicked out of the window for the sake of making the numbers work.

You don't see 200+ rattlesnake fleets out in null. You do presently see 200+ Domi fleets, so as for drone assist and drone nerfing the devs are nerfing the wrong ship...



If I'm in a rattler then I am HOPING they are shooting my sentry which has the equivalent tank of a cruiser. The time it takes to destroy one of my sentries is essentially a free period of me applying dps to them. And guess what happens after they kill my drone? I launch another one. So please direct all your time in shooting my uber tanked drones instead of me. If I feel like it ill recall it to safety, or maybe not. With the bonuses I have plenty of time to make that decision now.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#751 - 2014-04-17 19:25:55 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)


Let me be the first to welcome you to EVE Online, a game where you have to make decisions and compromises and where choices have consequences.

You can still fit your Rattlesnake the "old" way if you want, nobody's taking that away from you. They're giving you the additional choice of fitting it a new way.



Great, really great constructive answer,

Of course I welcome disregarding the buff we have ben promised and have waited for for an eternity, thank you for your insight and wisdom.

May i respectfully point you to a quote from my post?


"So lets cut through all the trolling and bullshit."

Too hard?
We've seen the entire Guristas line repurposed in this rebalance. They aren't the generic, and thus obsolete, all around drone users they once were. They are clearly becoming focused on closer range engagement which means the 2nd DLA isn't necessarily part of the design intent. That's how it seems from where I'm looking anyways. Sentry bonuses on this ship probably only came from the factors of drone band allowing it without funky number work and as stated preserving some, but not necessarily all, of the current functionality.

I think it's wrong at this point to ask for the ship to fit in the places it did before in the same ways.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#752 - 2014-04-17 19:27:32 UTC
For those worrying about the Gallente missile bonus, I have a simple explanation:

The engineers had to throw out the hardpoints at first to make room for the super drone tech. Until some genius came up with the idea to link missile launcher operation with the drone routines. This allowed them to use drone launch and navigation computers on board to access and fire missile launchers without the need for additional hardware. Only limit was that missiles being more stupid than drones could only cope with two damage type application evaluations, so they used kinetic and thermal damage types because that's how they roll.

Hence firing and controlling missiles feels more like interfacing with Gallente artificial neural networks, because that's what you are actually using. You are just imposing your missile skills on the ship while the AI interpreter connected to the drone hub translates it into drone-like commands to be processed.


See? You only need to make up some stuff and lore coherence is preserved.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#753 - 2014-04-17 19:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)


Let me be the first to welcome you to EVE Online, a game where you have to make decisions and compromises and where choices have consequences.

You can still fit your Rattlesnake the "old" way if you want, nobody's taking that away from you. They're giving you the additional choice of fitting it a new way.



Great, really great constructive answer,

Of course I welcome disregarding the buff we have ben promised and have waited for for an eternity, thank you for your insight and wisdom.

May i respectfully point you to a quote from my post?


"So lets cut through all the trolling and bullshit."

Too hard?
We've seen the entire Guristas line repurposed in this rebalance. They aren't the generic, and thus obsolete, all around drone users they once were. They are clearly becoming focused on closer range engagement which means the 2nd DLA isn't necessarily part of the design intent. That's how it seems from where I'm looking anyways. Sentry bonuses on this ship probably only came from the factors of drone band allowing it without funky number work and as stated preserving some, but not necessarily all, of the current functionality.

I think it's wrong at this point to ask for the ship to fit in the places it did before in the same ways.


There is some truth in what you say, there are new roles where this ship can fit, no question of that, new possibilities are welcome, however CCP RIse did NOT say that the ship was going to be repurposed, and the bonus of a new launcher would be wasted completely for users who are using it at the moment.
There was plenty and plenty of opportunity for him to say this if he chose to, in fact he said the opposite.
"Rattlesnake is receiving a buff."
Somewhat different i think?

There are lots of changes, and I do not believe that he expected people to say "thanks for the nerfs we will do it completely different now" and then theship can be used in a totally different way so the bonuses will exceed the nerfs.

We are asking for a tiny, tiny, modification to avoid screwing the ship up for current users making the bonus launcher worthless.
This is the post read it, there is NOTHING anyone sensible can say is changing it's power, just correcting an issue that has come up. That is the reason for these forums,
Link will be in edit.
Edit here is link
Link to post

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#754 - 2014-04-17 19:54:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What I and many others are saying that in order to make use of this power it is necessary to remove one drone link augmentor as this is replaced by the extra turret (no spare slot to fit it)


Let me be the first to welcome you to EVE Online, a game where you have to make decisions and compromises and where choices have consequences.

You can still fit your Rattlesnake the "old" way if you want, nobody's taking that away from you. They're giving you the additional choice of fitting it a new way.



Great, really great constructive answer,

Of course I welcome disregarding the buff we have ben promised and have waited for for an eternity, thank you for your insight and wisdom.

May i respectfully point you to a quote from my post?


"So lets cut through all the trolling and bullshit."

Too hard?
We've seen the entire Guristas line repurposed in this rebalance. They aren't the generic, and thus obsolete, all around drone users they once were. They are clearly becoming focused on closer range engagement which means the 2nd DLA isn't necessarily part of the design intent. That's how it seems from where I'm looking anyways. Sentry bonuses on this ship probably only came from the factors of drone band allowing it without funky number work and as stated preserving some, but not necessarily all, of the current functionality.

I think it's wrong at this point to ask for the ship to fit in the places it did before in the same ways.


There is some truth in what you say, there are new roles where this ship can fit, no question of that, however CCP RIse did NOT say that the ship was going to be repurposed, and the bonus of a new turret would be wasted completely for users who are using it at the moment.
There was plenty and plenty of opportunity for him to say this if he chose to, in fact he said the opposite.
"Rattlesnake is receiving a buff."
Somewhat different i think?

There are lots of changes, and I do not believe that he expected people to say "thanks for the nerfs we will do it completely different now" and then the bonuses will exceed the nerfs.

We are asking for a tiny, tiny, modification to avoid screwing the ship up for current users making the bonus turret worthless.
This is the post read it, there is NOTHING anyone sensible can say is changing it's power, just correcting an issue that has come up. Link will be in edit.
Edit here is link
Link to post

Buffs and repurposes are not mutually exclusive. Taking for instance the fact that with 4 launchers and 2 DLA's in a range setup you still have 7.5 effective drones with sentries and now 6 effective launchers with bonused missiles vs 4 now. The issue becomes then that the missile damage is more delayed, but that's not insurmountable in any way. You still have

As a pure sentry ship you literally had no change.
As a sentry first missile second ship, you got a slight buff.
As a balanced ship you gained a whole new realm of possibilities

Now we can see what the real issue is. It's not that is didn't get a buff, in today's common sentry/cruise config it did, but rather that you can't fully take advantage of all the buffs fully in today's RS config. And really, that's not a problem with the ship. We need more ships like this, with real choices, not less.
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#755 - 2014-04-17 20:09:08 UTC
As I said I like the new stuff but i would prefer an explosion radius bonus or something like that to rattlesnake than a damage to two types that still will be too hard to apply.

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#756 - 2014-04-17 20:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sorry messed up quoting too many quotes

I agree with the thought that more opportunities is good, who could disagree with that sentiment? but imagine giving another turret to say a Helios, but you have to give up the covert ops cloak or probe launcher to fit it? Would that be a good idea? an extreme example i know but you get the idea i'm sure.

The idea is good to boost missile damage on the rattlesnake, but the implementation of adding a launcher does not work.

This is an issue that has come up when current users of the rattlesnake attempted to create test fits, and realised the impact of the fitting. This we are pointing out to CCP, this is why these forums exist so users can give feedback to the devs.

If CCP RIse does wish this ship to be used in a totally different manner from currently, I and others will no doubt either accept it or move to other ships. There are plenty of others to choose from.
We have waited a long time for the rattlesnake to hold it's head up with other Pirate battleships, hopefully we need to wait no more.

If however this is a matter where the playerbase has identified an issue where he might wish to resolve it, then the ship really will be a successful rebalance where existing and new playstyles and methods are preserved.

I believe that is reasonable to give CCP Rise the chance to actually tell us his intentions rather than we assume them for ourselves?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Hai fanfan
Space Resque and Salvage S.A.
#757 - 2014-04-17 20:41:24 UTC
maybe i'm wrong but the rattle is now a bit "tight " on CPU; you will need to fit bcus now in lows in adition to ddas and those are very cpu hungry;
as an example rattlesnake have the same cpu amount as a nightmare;
asuming an identical med slot fitting( they are shield tanking and have same number of meds), cruise/torpedo launchers use more cpu than lasers and also you will need much more cpu to fit those 6 slots on rattlesnake since you will need ddas and bcus, while on nightmare you will fit 3-4 cpu hungry mods and rest wil be tracking mods with much lower cpu req
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#758 - 2014-04-17 20:48:30 UTC
Hai fanfan wrote:
maybe i'm wrong but the rattle is now a bit "tight " on CPU; you will need to fit bcus now in lows in adition to ddas and those are very cpu hungry;
as an example rattlesnake have the same cpu amount as a nightmare;
asuming an identical med slot fitting( they are shield tanking and have same number of meds), cruise/torpedo launchers use more cpu than lasers and also you will need much more cpu to fit those 6 slots on rattlesnake since you will need ddas and bcus, while on nightmare you will fit 3-4 cpu hungry mods and rest wil be tracking mods with much lower cpu req



I don't think I've ever used more than 3/4 of the available fitting on the snake. Since a cruise missile launcher only takes 10 more CPU than the DLA I really don't see that as a problem. There are also going to be new faction drone mods, it wouldn't surprise me if they, like the CN BCU, use less CPU than the standard mods.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#759 - 2014-04-17 20:57:48 UTC
Don't like the new Rattlesnake? Get the Nestor instead.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#760 - 2014-04-17 20:59:46 UTC
Shocked
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Don't like the new Rattlesnake? Get the Nestor instead.
Shocked

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

Now that is just cruel lol

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE