These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

No More High Sec Manufacturing?

First post First post
Author
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#161 - 2014-04-16 23:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So, given that war decs will almost always be larger aggressor corp vs. smaller corp, and the aggressor will almost always have neutral logi available, the status quo will not change with the introduction of these changes. HTFU? Sure people will dock up, or avoid the war dec in other ways, just as they do now. And they'll ditch they're POS too. Is that what these changes are meant to encourage?

One way or the other, war decs are a poor solution for removing/defending a POS.
And what would a good solution be?

Truth is, either you make highsec POSs invulnerable and throw away the very foundation of the game (competitive sandbox), or any removing/defending mechanic will always favor larger and more organized groups. EDIT: sounds like I'm hijacking Somebody's Law but who cares? It's not like that Somebody is posting in this very thread Big smile

The solution for the little fish? Thrive in your pond 'cause the ocean is full of sharks! Don't make your POS a juicy easy target and you'll be fine.

I was simply disagreeing with the fact that wardecs as such will have a purpose (particularly for the defender) for industrialists/quasi industrialists/other random corps after the summer expansion, just as they are not viable now.

Dedicated war dec corps will still war dec the easy targets. Large blobs will still blob. And small-medium industry (one of the targets of this expansion) will abandon their assets and move elsewhere the moment they become a target, as that is their only practical recourse.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#162 - 2014-04-17 01:11:38 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So, given that war decs will almost always be larger aggressor corp vs. smaller corp, and the aggressor will almost always have neutral logi available, the status quo will not change with the introduction of these changes. HTFU? Sure people will dock up, or avoid the war dec in other ways, just as they do now. And they'll ditch they're POS too. Is that what these changes are meant to encourage?

One way or the other, war decs are a poor solution for removing/defending a POS.
And what would a good solution be?

Truth is, either you make highsec POSs invulnerable and throw away the very foundation of the game (competitive sandbox), or any removing/defending mechanic will always favor larger and more organized groups. EDIT: sounds like I'm hijacking Somebody's Law but who cares? It's not like that Somebody is posting in this very thread Big smile

The solution for the little fish? Thrive in your pond 'cause the ocean is full of sharks! Don't make your POS a juicy easy target and you'll be fine.

I was simply disagreeing with the fact that wardecs as such will have a purpose (particularly for the defender) for industrialists/quasi industrialists/other random corps after the summer expansion, just as they are not viable now.

Dedicated war dec corps will still war dec the easy targets. Large blobs will still blob. And small-medium industry (one of the targets of this expansion) will abandon their assets and move elsewhere the moment they become a target, as that is their only practical recourse.


So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#163 - 2014-04-17 01:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#164 - 2014-04-17 01:33:00 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.

What if the tower got locked down when the war dec starts because the tower is specifically named as the target. Industrialist if he hires people to defend him for a specific amount of time gets x amount of time that that tower cant be targeted again.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#165 - 2014-04-17 01:37:20 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.


Now you are talking about rocket science because the average null dummy just can't understand why some people refuse to PVP.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#166 - 2014-04-17 01:38:38 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


It might be nice to actually have a reason to start wardec.

Even nicer to actually have a reason to defend one.

While this is a nice sentiment, war decs have many significant outstanding problems. The two most glaring:

(1) The significant difference in cost to wardec small entities vs. large entities
-If I want to wardec Bob's 10 man corp, it's dirt cheap.
-If I want to wardec a 10,000+ member corp, it can get prohibitively expensive.
-It is therefore cheaper and easier to wardec a small corp.
-Some larger entities become effectively immune to all but the most dedicated of war-deccers.



My corp was at war for a whole week in its existence prior to joining pblrd, which occurred whilst I was unsubbed to shoot the labs off the tower that ran out of fuel whilst I was unsubbed.

It has averaged 9 wars simultaneously since, and the only time I've ever risked being interdicted was being decced as a large entity. ie you have the actual behavior of wardecs all backwards. The only way a small corp gets decced is if it has someone that draws ingame attention to themselves (shiny ship, terrible attitude on local etc).

Quote:


(2) Neutral Reps
-If you are war-decced and go after the deccer, they almost always have neutral reps. Yes, yes, HTFU, I'll get to that later.
-These reps are either provided by alts or through a neutral logi pact with other war dec entities.



Who cares what they rep with, a dickstar doesn't need to shoot them.

Quote:


So, given that war decs will almost always be larger aggressor corp vs. smaller corp, and the aggressor will almost always have neutral logi available, the status quo will not change with the introduction of these changes. HTFU? Sure people will dock up, or avoid the war dec in other ways, just as they do now. And they'll ditch they're POS too. Is that what these changes are meant to encourage?

One way or the other, war decs are a poor solution for removing/defending a POS.


You are supposed to fight for stuff, and if you must have a 3 man corp in an MMO, you have to accept that its going to be bad at holding public assets, no matter what method is given to allow aggression to occur. I really can't see where your point is attempting to run to.

There are more moons in highsec than there are anchored towers in the game.




Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#167 - 2014-04-17 01:54:45 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
Can you imagine how many HIgh-Sec POS's are going to be going BOOM after this summer patch? Imagine all the Merc groups and other PVPer's tracking down all the POS's with labs and wardeccing those corps. It will only cost you 50 million to war dec and the chance of a 100mill plus BPO dropping is going to be huge. How many of these small size alt corps actually log in each day and look for wardecs?

I see a lot of tears coming to the forums soon as POS bashing comes back in style.


I really wouldn't count on that, odds are the majority will just suck up the cost and eat the loss from copying the BPO remotely. At best you'll be paying 50mil to get 20mil of BPCs
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#168 - 2014-04-17 01:58:01 UTC
Salpun wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.

What if the tower got locked down when the war dec starts because the tower is specifically named as the target. Industrialist if he hires people to defend him for a specific amount of time gets x amount of time that that tower cant be targeted again.

Then the industrialist will choose not to have the tower in the first place. Either way, mercs and hisce war decs wont change much in either their impact or raison d'etre.

Sure, the small scale hisec industrialist should fight for what he has. Standard eve adage blah blah blah. But in the end he'll simply choose to put what he has where other people won't be able to to touch it. That's reality.

Thus, mercs and war decs won't change one iota (my original point).
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2014-04-17 02:05:23 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
[quote=Salpun]

Sure, the small scale hisec industrialist should fight for what he has. Standard eve adage blah blah blah. But in the end he'll simply choose to put what he has where other people won't be able to to touch it. That's reality.

.


Or just move.

PI planets are a case in point. Cost 10 mill maximum to set up usually less, produce a hundred mill per month in a good losec location. If someone starts camping your losec PI systems its better to upload minerals to the POCO and demolish your ops, setup in a totally new region and go back for the left over mats when you get around it.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#170 - 2014-04-17 02:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
After reading the Dev Blog, just considering what will this actually mean, and I am thinking perhaps this is partly to try and make high sec manufacturing extremely uneconomical. It all depends on what CCP will set for the cost and how much it increases based upon the number of people wanting to use the station. Any chance you can give us the formula CCP as right now the repercussion are a little hazy?

So, is this now going to make high sec manufacturing now not so desirable? After all, this could be a big buff to low sec if all industrialists will have to relocate out there to get good a decent profit margin.

Also - "Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements"

This is going to be interesting.




I'm sure it's not that simple.

And any arbitrary "force people into someone's gate camp" changes are going to be met with unsubs.

Nullsec has been very due for a boost in production capability for a long time.


I imagine that mfg slot costs in high are going up anywhere between 1,000 and 10,000 times over existing costs, for any system within 15 jumps of a trade hub. That includes low sec as well.

If it takes a little over 500 million ISK / month right now to run a large POS, you can bet that to run the same amount of research / mfg slots as in an NPC station will be closer to a billion when the dust settles. Of course, in null sec, the same amount of slots will be a tiny fraction of that. Of course, finding a POS location in high sec will become more than problematic anyway.


I generally find Dinsdale to be a chicken little, but in this case he may be on to something. If a POS is going to improve the performance of labs and assembly arrays something huge is going to have to offset the cost of actually running a POS. Either NPC station lines are going to be hugely expensive or fuel block requirements are going to dramatically fall. Either way someone is going to have to take a huge hit to make this thing balance out.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#171 - 2014-04-17 03:44:04 UTC
Cpt Swagg wrote:
More POSes?
Easier to POS?
More systems to POS?

How is this less manufacturing in highsec?


Also don't fear the change, embrace it.


- Cpt Swagg



As I sit in an Obelisk waiting for literal minutes (not figurative ones) to jump across a 120AU system. Yes all change is good! Roll
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#172 - 2014-04-17 04:01:24 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.


Then it's about time we make corp flipping a bannable exploit, if you ask me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#173 - 2014-04-17 04:12:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.


Then it's about time we make corp flipping a bannable exploit, if you ask me.

Sure, make a forum thread, petition your CSM delegate, write a blog or w/e. But that's really outside the scope of both this thread and the summer expansion changes in question.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#174 - 2014-04-17 04:23:47 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Actually that exact scenario has been happening in the US for a decade or more. The cost of manufacturing got so high due to labor costs that the owners of many companies have either shipped their production lines to Asia or have completely sold their company to a foreign investor.
A lot longer than a decade but off-shoring is more about tax and regulation avoidance for multi-national companies than labor savings.

I have a US based textile company where I can subcontract cut and sew operations for less than 10% difference of what it would cost in SE Asia - while improving time to manufacture and quality control. The problem is sourcing fabrics in the US. China is full of brand new 9001 factories while US manufacturers haven't made capital improvements of US facilities in decades.

Here are a couple of articles:
Forbes: How does Apple avoid taxes ,
Huffington:18 large tax avoiders
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#175 - 2014-04-17 04:29:53 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Sure, make a forum thread, petition your CSM delegate, write a blog or w/e. But that's really outside the scope of both this thread and the summer expansion changes in question.


In fairness, so are more than a few of your own comments.

I get it though, your basic point is "the people who want to avoid PvP will do anything to avoid it." The basic point of a lot of us is that those people are playing the game wrong, and that doing that should not be so consistently rewarded as it has been.

But if you ask me, they're trying to make some neglected aspects of the game more appealing for everyone, not just highsec. That's not a bad thing, and especially since we only know the general aspect and not a lot of the particulars (no patch notes, no F&I proposed changes threads, or anything like that), I will reserve judgment.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#176 - 2014-04-17 04:36:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Sure, make a forum thread, petition your CSM delegate, write a blog or w/e. But that's really outside the scope of both this thread and the summer expansion changes in question.


In fairness, so are more than a few of your own comments.

I get it though, your basic point is "the people who want to avoid PvP will do anything to avoid it." The basic point of a lot of us is that those people are playing the game wrong, and that doing that should not be so consistently rewarded as it has been.

But if you ask me, they're trying to make some neglected aspects of the game more appealing for everyone, not just highsec. That's not a bad thing, and especially since we only know the general aspect and not a lot of the particulars (no patch notes, no F&I proposed changes threads, or anything like that), I will reserve judgment.

I agree with you. My area of contention was Malcanis's point that this would add purpose to wardec for the defender and the attacker. It won't. Likewise, I disagreed with his assertion that industrialists might higher mercs as a result. I laid out my thoughts on why they wouldn't.

Overall, this change may or may not be good, we'll see.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#177 - 2014-04-17 04:42:55 UTC
Type VIIb wrote:
The POS anywhere bit will kill one of my income streams. It also means that there will be a land grab and forced wars for moons. You single man corps are going to get bowled over eventually (it'll take a while).

For the PVP types, enjoy, but the casual small player is getting forced deeper and deeper in to the cracks of the game. I have no desire to be forced in to a large group and listen to corp politics drone on or be wardecced in to ineffectiveness.

Please explain. What will be different than current wardeccing for POS's? Or how will this change go the same way as the POCO's, as I think you are suggesting?

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#178 - 2014-04-17 04:42:58 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

I agree with you. My area of contention was Malcanis's point that this would add purpose to wardec for the defender and the attacker. It won't. Likewise, I disagreed with his assertion that industrialists might higher mercs as a result. I laid out my thoughts on why they wouldn't.

Overall, this change may or may not be good, we'll see.


It does add purpose, though. It incentivizes the use of more POS setups in highsec, and provides for it. Those are assets, they are at risk during war, and provide potential targets when otherwise they would just be docked up.

Now, whether the mechanics actually make it purposeful or not is a different discussion. As you have pointed out, there are a few obvious ways to mitigate the entire thing, and as I pointed out, that is because wardecs are brokenly easy to avoid.

Which is pretty much the entire sub-discussion.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#179 - 2014-04-17 05:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: King Fu Hostile
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So what you're saying is that there will also be a valid economic reason for mercenaries to exist.

Nope. Mercenaries won't get hired for the same reason mercenaries don't get hired now.

(a) Pay war deccer X to not harass me. Or (b) pay mercenary Y to maybe deter X. Good luck with that. This is unlikely to work well for the two reasons I indicated in my first post, among others.

The industrialist will choose (c) unanchor tower, flip corp, re-anchor tower, or don't bother with asset like tower in the first place. Doesn't have to pay anyone (monetary and emotional satisfaction) and less likely to attract "repeat business" later on.


Now you are talking about rocket science because the average null dummy just can't understand why some people refuse to PVP.



Security for your operations has a price counted in money and manpower (just like in RL), and it gets progressively higher as sec status gets lower. Paying an external body for protection in hisec is still peanuts compared to the costs of security you pay in higher class wormholes, which again is peanuts compared to what nullsec entities have to invest in the upkeep of their defenses.

Ideally these changes would lead to a substantial price hike for ships and modules, lead by the increase of costs in highsec. This opens up opportunities for the birth/revival of lesser trade hubs, and higher profits for those who manufacture in lowsec.

And, gasp, a reason for entities to actually have an industrial wing which can supply them with reasonably priced gear.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2014-04-17 07:05:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I get it though, your basic point is "the people who want to avoid PvP will do anything to avoid it." The basic point of a lot of us is that those people are playing the game wrong, and that doing that should not be so consistently rewarded as it has been.

I still don't get this mindset.

In a game where you chose the means to get to your goals why is evasion of people trying to actively hinder you frowned upon?