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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#621 - 2014-04-16 14:50:58 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I don't want my previous reply sound like a criticism of new ideas, yes I agree there are new roles possible here to make an awesome ship using rapid launchers or even very close range torpedoes.
My current concern is that the rattlesnake has been passed over by players as it does not have enough "special" about it currently to match other, better ships.

The bonus to missiles, lifts it into the next level where it is an equal if different ship to the other pirate vessels.

However, there is an issue here, where the loss of the 25km drone range and loss of 2.5 effective light and medium drones , drops it back down again.

The light and medium drone issue, simply is only an annoyance, if the effective drone range is restored.

So very simply I applaud the options made possible by the new rattlesnake, but losing 25km of the drone range makes it effectively no better than the current rattlesnake, just different.



I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#622 - 2014-04-16 14:52:11 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
In each case the bonus to Gurista ships states "bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage" without refering to heavy, heavy assault, etc.

Does this mean that each ship will have bonuses that apply to all missiles that do said damage?

To state more clearly, can we expect the damage bonus on the RS to also apply when firing thermal and kinetic missiles from RHML and RLML?


Yes, the damage bonus will apply to RHML and RLML.

I'm not sure if it helps settle anything but from my perspective the angel ships aren't necessarily meant to be armor or shield. They are capable of both and even though the ISIS says shields we are very happy with the versatility that Angel ships are capable of.

Speaking of Angel ships, I looked into making the Mach turrets symmetrical and unfortunately it isn't going to happen. It would be almost impossible to avoid having a significant impact on balance for the ship and we don't feel that an aesthetic concern like this justifies making a change. Sorry Cry


the problem with this versatility .. is it thats what minnie are meant to be .. its a huge overlap .. and all the other pirate races have a more distinguished trait or many differences from the other main races...

Blood - neut/nos and web range
Sansha - are only shield laser race plus AB bonus
serpentis - have massively OP web .. a little too similar as gallente blaster boats mind
Gurista - drones/missiles massive shield tank

then angels - omni tank, falloff and speed ... oh wait same as minnie .. the warp bonus isn't that useful

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#623 - 2014-04-16 14:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Last Wolf wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I don't want my previous reply sound like a criticism of new ideas, yes I agree there are new roles possible here to make an awesome ship using rapid launchers or even very close range torpedoes.
My current concern is that the rattlesnake has been passed over by players as it does not have enough "special" about it currently to match other, better ships.

The bonus to missiles, lifts it into the next level where it is an equal if different ship to the other pirate vessels.

However, there is an issue here, where the loss of the 25km drone range and loss of 2.5 effective light and medium drones , drops it back down again.

The light and medium drone issue, simply is only an annoyance, if the effective drone range is restored.

So very simply I applaud the options made possible by the new rattlesnake, but losing 25km of the drone range makes it effectively no better than the current rattlesnake, just different.



I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.



Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.

It is a very minor tweak to make up for the losses in missile velocity, effective light and medium drones change to superdrone mechanics and recent omnidirectional changes. And will make the rattlesnake effective in it's current role and still open up new roles and choices too.

After all is the drone control range on the rattlesnake a problem, is it necessary do bring it down to 80km for some reason?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#624 - 2014-04-16 15:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Last Wolf
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:


I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.



Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.



It will still be good at dealing nearly 1150 dps at 105km.

Or you can deal 1300 dps at 80km.

Its about consequences of your fitting choices. Do you want damage, or range? No ship should be able to fit for everything with one fit.

The ship with 5 launchers will deal 800-900 dps at lock range with fury cruise missiles. It can then switch on the fly between 700dps drones at ~40km or 500dps drones at 80km.
If you want to focus more on drone dps past 80km, you will have to lose a bit of missile dps.

Ninja Edit: Best case this ship will be dealing ~1400 dps sub 40km with 5x cruise furys. Worst case it will be dealing 1100 dps at 105km with 4x cruise furies and 2xDLA.

Hell if you're that upset over it bring a dang Mobile depot and switch out your 5th launcher and 2nd DLA whenever you need to.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#625 - 2014-04-16 15:07:44 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:


I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.



Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.



It will still be good at dealing nearly 1150 dps at 105km.

Or you can deal 1300 dps at 80km.

Its about consequences of your fitting choices. Do you want damage, or range? No ship should be able to fit for everything with one fit.

The ship with 5 launchers will deal 800-900 dps at lock range with fury cruise missiles. It can then switch on the fly between 700dps drones at ~40km or 500dps drones at 80km.
If you want to focus more on drone dps past 80km, you will have to lose a bit of missile dps.


Exactly.

You can also drone control rig it.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#626 - 2014-04-16 15:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Last Wolf wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:


I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.



Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.



It will still be good at dealing nearly 1150 dps at 105km.

Or you can deal 1300 dps at 80km.

Its about consequences of your fitting choices. Do you want damage, or range? No ship should be able to fit for everything with one fit.

The ship with 5 launchers will deal 800-900 dps at lock range with fury cruise missiles. It can then switch on the fly between 700dps drones at ~40km or 500dps drones at 80km.
If you want to focus more on drone dps past 80km, you will have to lose a bit of missile dps.


Taking your figures as accurate, but it seems like all your lows and rigs must be fitted for damage, This might have been the case in a world where micro jump drives did not exist but it accomplishes nothing apart from making it either a pain in the ass to fly, or fit for missiles and drones are a freebie when the rats get in close.


It does not make the rattlesnake comparable to the other pirate frigates, just like now.

Damage choices should be on how you fit your damage mods here, the choice is to fit for missile or drone damage, t1 or t2 weapons. Selecting your sentry drones.

Losing the drone range means one must ALWAYS fit for max missile damage and launchers. That is not enabling choice.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Azure Rayl
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2014-04-16 15:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Azure Rayl
CCP Rise wrote:
I didn't say serious, I said significant. It wouldn't just be a damage increase. It would be a heavier importance placed on a required skill, changes to fitting balance, changes in ammo consumption, change in fitting cost, potential effects on damage output and/or alpha. It's not unsolvable or something, it's just a lot of things that need to be accounted for and we don't think it's worth it in this case.


Make the seventh turret invisible on the mach or reallocate the seventh turret to a more visually appealing area :P problem solved :)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#628 - 2014-04-16 15:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jenn aSide wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Last Wolf wrote:


I must be missing the
ROLE:
-25km done control range

bonus on the rattlesnake...

There is nothing stopping you from fitting 2 DLA, and 4 launchers exactly like you do now.



Quite correct, and then the rattlesnake goes from a ship that holds it's own with the other pirate vessels to where it is now, passed over and not really special at anything.



It will still be good at dealing nearly 1150 dps at 105km.

Or you can deal 1300 dps at 80km.

Its about consequences of your fitting choices. Do you want damage, or range? No ship should be able to fit for everything with one fit.

The ship with 5 launchers will deal 800-900 dps at lock range with fury cruise missiles. It can then switch on the fly between 700dps drones at ~40km or 500dps drones at 80km.
If you want to focus more on drone dps past 80km, you will have to lose a bit of missile dps.


Exactly.

You can also drone control rig it.



Ok now we have a ship with no shield rigs, all other rigs and lows used for damage mods,no tank, and the mids used for getting this amazing damage to apply.


Seems balanced..............

Or one can add 25km drone control range to the ship, and give it the Buff CCP rise suggested it was gaining to make it equal amongst the other pirate battleships.

Which makes more sense?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#629 - 2014-04-16 15:31:24 UTC
A missile ship equal with the turret ships? You sir must be quite off your rocker.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#630 - 2014-04-16 15:33:31 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
A missile ship equal with the turret ships? You sir must be quite off your rocker.


Different, but able to held it's head high! my good man.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#631 - 2014-04-16 15:37:38 UTC
In my opinion
RS should have the same 275% bonus to all drones not just heavy and sentry drones
Gila should have the same 500% bonus not just to medium but to light drones as well
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#632 - 2014-04-16 15:39:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Morukk Nuamzzar wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Frigates are an issue as Lights and mediums are unbonused so you best kill them at range, quickly.

But apparently, if nothing changes it is a medium range cruise missile sentry boat?Shocked

So Mjd would be needed purely for escape i guess. As if a few frigates gets through you are pretty borked otherwise.

So what are you saying, that 5 unbonused light drones are suddenly unable to deal with a few frigates?


No what I am saying is that you have 25km less range and time to shoot them in and if you fail, it is harder and takes longer to kill them, If you are overwhelmed and you MJD away, then you have to wait for 25*10 seconds (over two minutes) burning towards them , before you can reengage them with your sentries.

Of course you can kill them eventually, but it's Not exactly improving gameplay is it?


So i am wondering how Raven pilots with 5 unbonused light drones and no DDA's (unlike the 2-3 that will be on most RS) cope with these frigates of doom? I guess they all die every mission and the pilots just keep replacing them.

For the love of all the gods stop complaining about the amazing RS buff already. Unless you really think the extra 2-300 dps is going to slow down your damn missions/anoms. A few seconds longer maybe to kill 1-2 frigs that got close whilst shaving multiple minutes off your completion times.

And as for the linear thinking regarding the MJD. Your maths teacher called and apologises for forgetting to tell you about Pythagoras.
Here is a handy link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem

Reading these balance threads makes me dispair of humanity.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#633 - 2014-04-16 15:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
In my opinion
RS should have the same 275% bonus to all drones not just heavy and sentry drones
Gila should have the same 500% bonus not just to medium but to light drones as well



I understand, the Gila particularly suffers, but the Gila bonus to the 4 lights must be lower or the lights would be more powerful than the mediums, so 200% would be more sensible and balanced across the board.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#634 - 2014-04-16 15:41:10 UTC
So we can complain about the turrets on the rendering of a Machariel not being balanced, but we can't complain that the RS is still a gimp when compared to the other pirate BS's?
It really sucks being the black sheep of Eve... Smile
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#635 - 2014-04-16 15:41:53 UTC
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
In my opinion
RS should have the same 275% bonus to all drones not just heavy and sentry drones
Gila should have the same 500% bonus not just to medium but to light drones as well


your opinion is wrong
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#636 - 2014-04-16 15:43:13 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
So we can complain about the turrets on the rendering of a Machariel not being balanced, but we can't complain that the RS is still a gimp when compared to the other pirate BS's?
It really sucks being the black sheep of Eve... Smile


go back to highsec, missiles are fine and rattlesnake will do ridiculous damage
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#637 - 2014-04-16 15:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
TrouserDeagle wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
So we can complain about the turrets on the rendering of a Machariel not being balanced, but we can't complain that the RS is still a gimp when compared to the other pirate BS's?
It really sucks being the black sheep of Eve... Smile


go back to highsec, missiles are fine and rattlesnake will do ridiculous damage


So with all the mids, Rigs and lows, being full of damage mods, TP and omnis to get this ridiculous damage it better not leave Jita 4-4 then.

The damage levels and application with a sane fit, are quite reasonable. The range application has been gimped, solve that, then there Is a good ship to be proud of.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#638 - 2014-04-16 15:49:36 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
So we can complain about the turrets on the rendering of a Machariel not being balanced, but we can't complain that the RS is still a gimp when compared to the other pirate BS's?
It really sucks being the black sheep of Eve... Smile


go back to highsec, missiles are fine and rattlesnake will do ridiculous damage


So with all the mids, Rigs and lows, being full of damage mods, TP and omnis to get this ridiculous damage it better not leave Jita 4-4 then.

The damage levels and application with a sane fit, are quite reasonable. The range application has been gimped, solve that there. Is a good ship to be proud of.


+87.5% missile damage, -missile velocity bonus
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#639 - 2014-04-16 15:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
TrouserDeagle wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
So we can complain about the turrets on the rendering of a Machariel not being balanced, but we can't complain that the RS is still a gimp when compared to the other pirate BS's?
It really sucks being the black sheep of Eve... Smile


go back to highsec, missiles are fine and rattlesnake will do ridiculous damage


So with all the mids, Rigs and lows, being full of damage mods, TP and omnis to get this ridiculous damage it better not leave Jita 4-4 then.

The damage levels and application with a sane fit, are quite reasonable. The range application has been gimped, solve that there. Is a good ship to be proud of.


+87.5% missile damage, -missile velocity bonus


Remember the damage is not 100% applied

-25km range.
-2.5 effective medium drones.
-2.5 effective light drones.
- 3 heavy ECM drones plus bonus.
-3 heavy repair drones plus bonus.
Torpedoes no longer viable (if anyone ever used them)

The rest apart from the 25km range loss is dealable with, part of the quid pro quo.
The range loss defeats the reasons for improving the rattlesnake and bringing it up to the same level as the other pirate battleships.
One may as well go the whole way and make it all missile.
Sort of a navy raven with worse application.

Just add 25km drone control range to the ship and it is just about ideal and balanced where CCP rise said he wanted it to be, lots of fitting choices, lots of ways to use it in both PVP and PVE.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#640 - 2014-04-16 15:57:12 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Remember the damage is not 100% applied

-25km range.
-2.5 effective medium drones.
-2.5 effective light drones.
- 3 heavy ECM drones plus bonus.
-3 heavy repair drones plus bonus.
Torpedoes no longer viable (if anyone ever used them)


all of that is stupid. damage bonused cruise missiles are better in every way than range bonused torpedoes, and torpedoes are terrible anyway. lol @ ecm and repair drones.