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Bumping and mining barges; potential solution?
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I'm So Pretty
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-04-15 11:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm So Pretty
- Increase speed of mining barges by 200%
- Mining Barge skill increases velocity by 20% per level

Why?
Bumping is a valid mechanic and belongs in EVE, however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it. I can successfully bump any and every mining barge out of range besides an AB'd Skiff. I can do so consistently and indefinitely. That is not balanced. As a general statement there has to be a way to counter any action taken against you through your own counter gameplay. In it's current state the only way to counter being bumped is running away 8 systems so you can scream "harassment" to the GMs if they follow you.

With this change, all mining barges when fit with a 10MN AB could effectively avoid being bumped when piloted correctly. Those who are lazy, AFK and/or ignorant with their fittings could still be made victim.
Nolen Cadmar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-04-15 12:20:36 UTC
I agree with your point, but not your method. I'm not sure what the right way to combat bumping would be, but I don't believe this is it.

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HTC NecoSino
ISEEU Corporation
Observatory Great Bear
#3 - 2014-04-15 12:28:02 UTC
As stated in numerous such threads:

Kill them.

Can't kill them? Hire someone else to kill them.

Don't want to be "mean"? Pay them to leave you alone.

Broke? Go to LS, better yields.

Scared of LS? Find a WH, no local, so nobody will know you're there, so no bumping. Oh, and they have all the ABC ores, too!
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-04-15 14:30:49 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
As stated in numerous such threads:

Kill them.

Can't kill them? Hire someone else to kill them.

Don't want to be "mean"? Pay them to leave you alone.

Broke? Go to LS, better yields.

Scared of LS? Find a WH, no local, so nobody will know you're there, so no bumping. Oh, and they have all the ABC ores, too!

you CANT just "hire someone to kill them"

its highsec 90% of the time, so the game mechanics insure even if you wardec they can do whatever the **** they want for 24 hours, then leave their corp, if they arent already in an NPC corp.

This is the one issue people keep searing isnt BUT IS an actual imbalance in highsec, a character in an NPC corp can do WHATEVER they want to ANYONE, and to even attempt to protect yourself against them requires you to already lose a ship to them, then hope next time you see them you able to dock up and switch to a ship to punish yourself with a suicide gank to MAYBE defend yourself.

characters that can just hop corps arent much better either.


But in all seriousness, JUST in highsec, consistent bumping for 5+ minutes should be considered grief-tactics, not legitimate gameplay, because its something that poses NO RISK to the aggressor, makes the target UNABLE to even play due to being bumped, and gives his gang all the time in the world to slowboat over for the gank. If you want to kill someone before they can run, use a scram.

Also, seriously, remove the ability for characters in NPC corps to take their weapons off green, that way, at least theres the illusion that you cna declare war on people ganking you with impunity.
HTC NecoSino
ISEEU Corporation
Observatory Great Bear
#5 - 2014-04-15 14:49:27 UTC
You must be new to Eve, then?

There are corps that roll new characters every so often. It takes about 2 weeks to train up for a ganking destroyer. These corps bring enough of these throw-away characters to gank whatever is harassing you, get concorded, lol and do it over until their sec status drops too low. Then they biomass and do it again.
HTC NecoSino
ISEEU Corporation
Observatory Great Bear
#6 - 2014-04-15 14:57:46 UTC
Oh, and PS: Bumping is an artform.

1 ship (my Tengu) kills 3 mining barges.. not once, but twice (the 2nd time I even got pods since I had a SeBo)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18087099
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=17778817

Surely I don't have 3 points? Nope, just 1 + bumping the other 2.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#7 - 2014-04-15 16:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
I am sure those retrievers really gave you a fight.... Roll

Bumping may be an art, but it really needs to take relative mass into account. A ship that is so heavy it turns like a whale should not get bumped by something that much lighter so effectively.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2014-04-15 22:16:02 UTC
I'm So Pretty wrote:
however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it.


they lied

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#9 - 2014-04-15 22:18:30 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
JUST in highsec, consistent bumping for 5+ minutes should be considered grief-tactics, not legitimate gameplay,


if they dnt attempt to leave the belt and/or system i want them out of, i will bump them for more than 5 minutes. it most certainly should not be an exploit.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Void Covenant
The Initiative.
#10 - 2014-04-15 22:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh
HTC NecoSino wrote:
You must be new to Eve, then?

There are corps that roll new characters every so often. It takes about 2 weeks to train up for a ganking destroyer. These corps bring enough of these throw-away characters to gank whatever is harassing you, get concorded, lol and do it over until their sec status drops too low. Then they biomass and do it again.


Bio massing a neg ten character to circumvent in game penalties is a bannable offence, you might get away with it but it only takes one report from one of your pissed off victims.

And living in HS with -10 sec status is easy anyway, it might as well not exists at all.


Daichi Yamato wrote:


if they dnt attempt to leave the belt and/or system i want them out of, i will bump them for more than 5 minutes. it most certainly should not be an exploit.


In one system no, but if you follow them around to other systems after they have made a reasonable attemt to get away from you this is already considered harassment according to the EULA right now.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#11 - 2014-04-15 22:50:23 UTC
HTC NecoSino wrote:
Oh, and PS: Bumping is an artform.

1 ship (my Tengu) kills 3 mining barges.. not once, but twice (the 2nd time I even got pods since I had a SeBo)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18087099
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=17778817

Surely I don't have 3 points? Nope, just 1 + bumping the other 2.


Try it again against a trio of tactical cruisers just like yours then ill congratulate you on your kill mail.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#12 - 2014-04-15 22:57:52 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I'm So Pretty wrote:
however the miners have a point in claiming there is simply no way for them to combat it.


they lied

How? What can they do, mine harder?

I mean, I dont care about this beyind the silly of a small ship popping a big one around at will... But exactly how does a person fight this in a mining ship?

Its not a case of bring friends... This is one dude bumping another dude. Maybe fit a microwarp of your own? Does that work? Can you actively pilot around this?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2014-04-15 23:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Can you actively pilot around this?

You actually can. it just requires some finesse.

Some things that helped my miner against bumpers...

- a tight orbit around the rock you are mining. It's quite hard to bump something that is moving... especially in a tight orbit around a larger object. This also has the added benefit of throwing a wrench into suicide ganks. It's not much... but it could mean the difference between surviving in hull and barge parts everywhere.

- jamming yourself between a couple of rocks. This limits the angles they can bump you from as 'roids have notoriously large and somewhat unpredictable "contact radii." If you are bumped then you will often bump into the rocks yourself which dampens the original blow (and will sometimes jam you in even tighter).

- if bumped, use it to your advantage and align towards wherever you are being bumped towards. Then warp. Sometimes you'll have to angle your barge's vector just a bit off before a bump to get the right alignment.

How did you Veterans start?
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#14 - 2014-04-15 23:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
the answer (I regret to say) - devolves to alts online - train up an NPC alt, train skills for T1 - MWD, plates, (maybe overdrive injectors), minmatar cruiser - go bump him off your mining alt....
or alternatively
- pay someone else in local to do it for you
- ask one of your corpies to do it for you (at corp-rates)
- ask an OOC buddy to do it for you (who might even do it as a favour between friends)

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-04-15 23:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeshah Volfield
Using dotlan to find quieter systems instead of sticking to popular ones helps quite a bit, something I've never seen any industry-based corporation I've dealt with personally even bother trying.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#16 - 2014-04-16 00:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Bumping is not a problem.

Feeling entitled to be exempt from interaction with others in EVE is the problem.



With regards to small ships bumping things with much higher mass, these ships are cruiser-sized or so say the rigs and fittings. I would chalk their poor handling up to sub-par maneuvering thrusters. Not that EVE ever makes specific mention or any acknowledgement of maneuvering thrusters, unlike certain other competing space games I won't mention.

Beyond that singular point, I do agree that mass should indeed have more of a say in bumping mechanics. A bullet is not going to send a motorcycle veering off course, but a bowlling ball probably will. If you turn off the fish-eye effect from the FOV being set so high (read: turn down the FOV), you'll quickly see that your Atron really is more like a bullet than a bowling ball.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#17 - 2014-04-16 08:42:54 UTC
Bigger ships should apply damage to smaller ships. That would take care of bumping.

Jita undock would need to change though.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#18 - 2014-04-16 10:17:33 UTC
Threads like this are pathetic. Just stop - you can always suicide gank and pod your bumper. Wardec mine in lowsec, null or wh space. Hardly a game breaking issue.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#19 - 2014-04-16 10:37:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Actually... you are mining.

Someone could suicide gank and pod, counter bump, etc... but not your miner.

But that turns into requiring you to bring more people into a situation that was one guy bumping another guy, and what can the other guy do about it himself. Bring more people functions as a counter to just about anything but finding someone cloaked off grid.

The bumper is circumventing highsec restrictions against aggression, which given how often this happens and usually only to ships incapable of counter aggression themselves might need looking into, and the question I have is what can the miner himself do?

Apparently it's not impossible to wedge yourself in, and orbiting can reduce the issue as well. If that works well enough that the miner can continue mining at least half the time while playing joust with his aggressor, that's fair enough in my book.

A much larger issue should be bumping being used to prevent warping, apparently indefinitely. That should require tackle and aggression timers because it is blatantly a hostile act leading up to a kill.
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-04-16 12:10:41 UTC
Two rubberized coatings: regular and superball.
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