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No More High Sec Manufacturing?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#61 - 2014-04-15 20:36:42 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
After reading the Dev Blog, just considering what will this actually mean, and I am thinking perhaps this is partly to try and make high sec manufacturing extremely uneconomical. It all depends on what CCP will set for the cost and how much it increases based upon the number of people wanting to use the station. Any chance you can give us the formula CCP as right now the repercussion are a little hazy?

So, is this now going to make high sec manufacturing now not so desirable? After all, this could be a big buff to low sec if all industrialists will have to relocate out there to get good a decent profit margin.

Also - "Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements"

This is going to be interesting.

Devblog - Building Better Worlds


Reading is, after all, pretty difficult. I mean when you think about it, that's a three stage ascending complexity process; converting pictographics into phonemes; converting those phonemes into discrete words; converting the combined and ordered words (and the associated context) into a transcending meaning. And that's without even going into technical jargon, nuance, irony or dialectical variations.

Really, it's not that it's surprising that some people are bad it it: it's amazing that anyone can do it at all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Type VIIb
Generic Foods Alpha
#62 - 2014-04-15 20:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Type VIIb
I'll reread this when I get home but this sure seems like the final nail in the coffin for me.

The POS anywhere bit will kill one of my income streams. It also means that there will be a land grab and forced wars for moons. You single man corps are going to get bowled over eventually (it'll take a while).

For the PVP types, enjoy, but the casual small player is getting forced deeper and deeper in to the cracks of the game. I have no desire to be forced in to a large group and listen to corp politics drone on or be wardecced in to ineffectiveness. For me, at the end of a play session if I have to ask myself if I am having fun then that is a sign things are going in the wrong direction.

No, you can't have my stuff.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-04-15 20:46:56 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#64 - 2014-04-15 20:48:42 UTC
Type VIIb wrote:
I'll reread this when I get home but this sure seems like the final nail in the coffin for me.

The POS anywhere bit will kill one of my income streams. It also means that there will be a land grab and forced wars for moons. You single man corps are going to get bowled over eventually (it'll take a while).

For the PVP types, enjoy, but the casual small player is getting forced deeper and deeper in to the cracks of the game. I have no desire to be forced in to a large group and listen to corp politics drone on or be wardecced in to ineffectiveness. For me, at the end of a play session if I have to ask myself if I am having fun then that is a sign things are going in the wrong direction.

No, you can't have my stuff.


Why don't you wait to see how the story ends before you decide it's a tragedy?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Type VIIb
Generic Foods Alpha
#65 - 2014-04-15 20:49:53 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.


Yeah, that'll be great. Large roaming TALOS fleets burning down POS after POS over beers. People will love that.
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-04-15 21:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
Tippia wrote:
Dealth Striker wrote:
They really have to let us remap our skills

With all these major changes it really affects one's play style.
They are making some skills less desirable and others more desirable.

No, they really don't.
If something is more desirable than before, just train for it.



Thanks for offering your advice on one part of the comment
It is really the other part that is more important
Striker Out!!
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2014-04-15 21:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Tippia wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I'll be watching; if they nerf high sec too much I will have no choice but to quietly slip away, saving myself a subscription fee.

This is hardly a highsec nerf, though. It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.

I'm hoping that is the case. we'll see. I want to benefit from a change for once lol.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-04-15 21:17:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
After reading the Dev Blog, just considering what will this actually mean, and I am thinking perhaps this is partly to try and make high sec manufacturing extremely uneconomical. It all depends on what CCP will set for the cost and how much it increases based upon the number of people wanting to use the station. Any chance you can give us the formula CCP as right now the repercussion are a little hazy?

So, is this now going to make high sec manufacturing now not so desirable? After all, this could be a big buff to low sec if all industrialists will have to relocate out there to get good a decent profit margin.

Also - "Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements"

This is going to be interesting.

Devblog - Building Better Worlds


Reading is, after all, pretty difficult. I mean when you think about it, that's a three stage ascending complexity process; converting pictographics into phonemes; converting those phonemes into discrete words; converting the combined and ordered words (and the associated context) into a transcending meaning. And that's without even going into technical jargon, nuance, irony or dialectical variations.

Really, it's not that it's surprising that some people are bad it it: it's amazing that anyone can do it at all.

Very nice, a typical Malcanis post. I must be doing something right.
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-04-15 21:21:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Type VIIb wrote:
I'll reread this when I get home but this sure seems like the final nail in the coffin for me.

The POS anywhere bit will kill one of my income streams. It also means that there will be a land grab and forced wars for moons. You single man corps are going to get bowled over eventually (it'll take a while).

For the PVP types, enjoy, but the casual small player is getting forced deeper and deeper in to the cracks of the game. I have no desire to be forced in to a large group and listen to corp politics drone on or be wardecced in to ineffectiveness. For me, at the end of a play session if I have to ask myself if I am having fun then that is a sign things are going in the wrong direction.

No, you can't have my stuff.


Why don't you wait to see how the story ends before you decide it's a tragedy?


Yes by no means offer up your opinions (especially if they are negative)
Wait until it plays out and then give your opinion.
That way CCP can turn around and say "Well you never said anything when it was talked about"


You sure are going out of your way to try and bait people
Striker Out!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#70 - 2014-04-15 21:21:58 UTC
Type VIIb wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.


Yeah, that'll be great. Large roaming TALOS fleets burning down POS after POS over beers. People will love that.


Let me tell you about strontium clathrates.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2014-04-15 21:22:02 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:
Thanks for offering your advice on one part of the comment
It is really the other part that is more important

You mean the other part that I also commented on?

No, they don't have to let us remap our skills (since this would break things horribly).

When they make major changes that affects your play style and make some skills more desirable than before, you can just train for them.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#72 - 2014-04-15 21:24:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I'll be watching; if they nerf high sec too much I will have no choice but to quietly slip away, saving myself a subscription fee.

This is hardly a highsec nerf, though. It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.

POS users will just have to change their production models and add a copy process to the beginning of the total manufacturing chain. It isn't really a big inconvenience considering CCP are both buffing the entire industry interface, and reducing copy times.

This will inevitably benefit systems which are being least used at the moment if CCP get their formula for station tax correct.
Type VIIb
Generic Foods Alpha
#73 - 2014-04-15 21:25:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Type VIIb wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.


Yeah, that'll be great. Large roaming TALOS fleets burning down POS after POS over beers. People will love that.


Let me tell you about strontium clathrates.


You don't need to, the drunken roam can have a hangover follow up the next day or so.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2014-04-15 21:38:33 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
This is hardly a highsec nerf, though. It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.

POS users will just have to change their production models and add a copy process to the beginning of the total manufacturing chain. It isn't really a big inconvenience considering CCP are both buffing the entire industry interface, and reducing copy times.

This will inevitably benefit systems which are being least used at the moment if CCP get their formula for station tax correct.

Pretty much. It's actually kind of funny to stand back and watch how, on one side of the court, people are screaming about how this will require them to research more copies, and on the other side, people are screaming about how their research corps are being rendered useless because no-one will require additional research any more. Lol

In the end, I except that the logistics chain of large-scale manufacturing will be tossed around a bit, but all the pieces are there and just need to be put back in the right (new) place.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2014-04-15 21:43:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
This is hardly a highsec nerf, though. It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.

POS users will just have to change their production models and add a copy process to the beginning of the total manufacturing chain. It isn't really a big inconvenience considering CCP are both buffing the entire industry interface, and reducing copy times.

This will inevitably benefit systems which are being least used at the moment if CCP get their formula for station tax correct.

Pretty much. It's actually kind of funny to stand back and watch how, on one side of the court, people are screaming about how this will require them to research more copies, and on the other side, people are screaming about how their research corps are being rendered useless because no-one will require additional research any more. Lol

In the end, I except that the logistics chain of large-scale manufacturing will be tossed around a bit, but all the pieces are there and just need to be put back in the right (new) place.


Im waiting on the rest of the info to land before I try to get answers to my questions.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#76 - 2014-04-15 21:56:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.


A universal buff won't increase profits of manufacturing. Because manufacturers compete against each other. If everyone becomes 20% more effective, then they lower their margins by 20% to compensate.

The only people who benefit from such a buff are people who buy goods, because everything is 20% cheaper now.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-04-15 22:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Caviar Liberta
Type VIIb wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i like that the poses don't require absurd standings now, that's nice.


I sort of do as well, but what is going to happen if you want a moon and someone else has a POS there is this:

1) Pay 50mil to wardec corp owning POS;
2) Corp owning POS takes down their POS before war starts;
3) Corp owning POS jumps to new corp and throws up new POS at moon at the same time (2) is being completed;
4) Pay 50mil to wardec corp in step 3.
5) Give up on new moon.



The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.


Yeah, that'll be great. Large roaming TALOS fleets burning down POS after POS over beers. People will love that.


Those magical Talos POS burning fleets have a few weaknesses.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2014-04-15 22:12:36 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's a universal industry buff that, at most and as it has been described so far, hits nullseccers who have to rely on POSes more than anyone.


A universal buff won't increase profits of manufacturing. Because manufacturers compete against each other. If everyone becomes 20% more effective, then they lower their margins by 20% to compensate.

The only people who benefit from such a buff are people who buy goods, because everything is 20% cheaper now.

…and also the manufacturers, since they'll suffer from less RSI and fewer grey hairs. Everyone wins.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-04-15 22:19:02 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


The solution to this is, attacking POS in highsec is now a suspect level offense instead of a criminal level offense.


Was that in the devblog? I missed it.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#80 - 2014-04-15 22:25:33 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Thibault Etienne wrote:


Come on CCP. I hope you really aint thinking of making hi sec manufacturing less efficient. It makes no sense.


For the game it does make sense.



What has lacked sense, based on what I see the nullsec crowd and the 2 or 3 industrialists out there (*snark!), is that players in complete control of their facilities do not have as much control over the efficiency of them as much as the cost and logistics of emplacing, defending, and maintaining them would imply.


Given what they wanted, and for the reasons they cited over the years (I recall some of the goons being vocal about this) we would see a day of "Nullsec super-production facilities" that would put the production and value of a highsec installation to shame.



While I don't have a dog in the fight, it only seems logical to conclude that if someone is going to pay for SOV and defend it, then having some balls-to-the-wall production capabilities is only fitting.


Based on everything we have seen, creating passive income sources for null sec doesn't make people fight over it. It just reinforces cartels.

Industry based income encourages stability. Small groups can't break it up and the big guys can agree not to attack each other's industry.