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Analysis coming Pirate BS changes - Machariel
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Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-04-15 14:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Medai Kesrith
Details:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337011&find=unread

In short:
Machariel is nearly unchanged but gets Cruiser warp speed and warp acceleration.


Stats (only T1 variants):
Battleship basic warp speed = 2.0 AU (for comparsion Marauder basic warp speed = 2.2 AU)
Cruiser basic warp speed = 3.0 AU
Destroyer basic warp speed = 4.5 AU
Frigate basic warp speed = 5.0 AU

Machariel warp speed with different implants
- Eifyr and Co. 'rogue' Warp Drive Speed WS 615 = 3.4 AU
- Full low grade Ascendancy = 4.0 AU
- Full high grade Ascendancy = 4.6 AU (get a WS-618 instead of the Omega)

add a Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
- Eifyr and Co. 'rogue' Warp Drive Speed WS 615 = 4.3 AU
- Full low grade Ascendancy = 5.0 AU
- Full high grade Ascendancy = 5.8 AU (get a WS-618 instead of the Omega)


Conclusion:
The biggest recent nerf to LvL 4 mission runner and any anomalie(null and WH) farmer was the warp speed change. A BS needs about 1:30min (corrected ~65s) to warp 25 AU in a system. That is killing the ISK/h severly. With a high grade Ascendancy the coming Machariel will warp like a Destroyer. And please don't tell me the Rattlesnake will be superior because of ~1400 DPS with Torpedo and ~900DPS with CMs, that is what a good fitted Machariel is doing anyway with far better damage application.


Welcome the old and new king of LvL 4 mission farming, especially if you are in the blitzing mission business there will be no better ship like the Machariel. Depending on how you calculate you can spare at best 20min or at worst 10min per hour not wasting in warp.

More details:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4477671#post4477671

and more especially about tracking:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4506447#post4506447
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-04-15 15:16:15 UTC
what are the numbers on marauders?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-04-15 15:19:15 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
what are the numbers on marauders?


Marauder basic warp speed = 2.2 AU

the thing is the Machariel will not only warp with 3.0 AU but gets the warp acceleration like a Cruiser too.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-04-15 15:32:20 UTC
guess it's time to reactivate my mach pilot. then again, missions are ******* boring...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Medai Kesrith
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-04-15 15:40:48 UTC
If you are in the mission blitzing business, consider this Machariel that will warp with a high grade Ascendancy 5.8 AU faster than a Frigate :).

Quote:
[Machariel, warp speed]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-04-15 16:26:40 UTC
Good to see the Mach gets a well needed buff........................what the f are they thinking,i dont get it lol
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-04-15 16:31:52 UTC
Medai Kesrith wrote:
If you are in the mission blitzing business, consider this Machariel that will warp with a high grade Ascendancy 5.8 AU faster than a Frigate :).

Quote:
[Machariel, warp speed]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II



the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#8 - 2014-04-15 18:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Well they did nerf it a bit a few expansions ago (IIRC) with the TE-II changes. So a little love is nice, though not expected.

Edit; Yeah when I saw the changes posted I great big sigh of relief escaped from me, I really didn't like the idea of changing and training a whole new set of weapons and ships to V.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#9 - 2014-04-15 18:55:26 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays.


I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#10 - 2014-04-15 19:14:40 UTC
Dani Skye wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays.


I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/

That and the damn thing moves like a maelstrom to me when I fit armor.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#11 - 2014-04-15 19:29:17 UTC
Nightmare might be comparable to the Machariel with the AB buff. Also note the Mach got a targeting range buff, but it's align time and scan res were nerfed.

I don't know if the Rattlesnake changes equal a buff or a nerf. I'm still a little undecided on the Gurista ship changes. Only 2 drones???
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#12 - 2014-04-15 19:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Skye
Estella Osoka wrote:
Nightmare might be comparable to the Machariel with the AB buff. Also note the Mach got a targeting range buff, but it's align time and scan res were nerfed.

I don't know if the Rattlesnake changes equal a buff or a nerf. I'm still a little undecided on the Gurista ship changes. Only 2 drones???


If you want the Nightmare to be as fast as a Machariel, it won't be close even after the buff.
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#13 - 2014-04-15 19:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Skye
Double posting like a chump.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#14 - 2014-04-15 20:24:23 UTC
Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#15 - 2014-04-15 21:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Goldiiee wrote:
Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%.


Quick back-of-the-envelope calculation.

NM base speed: 114m/s; w/ Navigation V, 142.5m/s
100MN AB II base bonus: 135%; w/ Caldari Battleship V, 285%; w/ Acceleration Control V, 356%

Bonuses are added to base 100%, so AB speed is 142.5m/s * (100+356)% = 670m/s with an AB II and only those two three skills factored in.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#16 - 2014-04-15 21:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dani Skye
Goldiiee wrote:
Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%.


30% per level, not total.

Right Now prop mods on a Nightmare look like:

MWD = 855.5m/s [118 (base speed with Navigation 5) * 7.25 (MWD is 625% Bonus with Acceleration Control 5)]
AB = 356.95m/s [118 * 3.025 (X-type AB is 202.5%)]

After the patch, the Nightmare is getting BOTH the Caldari BS bonus AND a buff to base speed.

MWD = 1033.13m/s [142.5 base speed with Navigation 5) * 7.25 (MWD is 625% Bonus with Acceleration Control 5)]
AB = 864.26m/s [142.5 * 6.065 (see below**)

WIth Links, I could defintely see a 1k m/s AB nightmare.

** That said, there is some confusion on the wording of the AB bonus. My math above assumes it interacts multiplicatively and not additively with the AB Bonus.

Multiplicatively: 162% (Gist X-Type AB) * 150% (Cal BS V) * 25% (Accel Control V) = 506.25% increase
Additively: (162% + 150%) * 25% = 390% Increase

If it stacks additively, you'll see:

AB = 698.25m/s [142.5 * 4.90]

In which case, you'll need implants AND links to hit 1k m/s AB Nightmare.

EDIT: Goddamnit someone beat me to it. Leaving the post because I spent longer typing it. :(
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#17 - 2014-04-15 21:10:28 UTC
After the patch it will be comparable to a Machariel using an AB. A BS that can do over 500m/s and can easily hit targets at range is something to take note of. The Macherial doesn't have the range application the Nightmare has, so it has to burn towards some targets; Nightmare does not. So the Nightmare can spend the time while it is killing targets to burn for the next acc gate if it has to. Of course I am comparing a AC Macherial and a Pulse Nightmare.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#18 - 2014-04-15 21:28:10 UTC
Dani Skye

Dersen Lowery

Your Math Fu is much stronger than mine LOL, thanks for the numbers. Big smile Clear as mud now.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#19 - 2014-04-15 21:38:58 UTC
Dani Skye wrote:
EDIT: Goddamnit someone beat me to it. Leaving the post because I spent longer typing it. :(


And liked because you showed more of your work.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
stoicfaux
#20 - 2014-04-16 03:31:50 UTC
Medai Kesrith wrote:

Conclusion:
The biggest recent nerf to LvL 4 mission runner and any anomalie(null and WH) farmer was the warp speed change. A BS needs about 1:30min to warp 25 AU in a system. That is killing the ISK/h severly. With a high grade Ascendancy the coming Machariel will warp like a Destroyer. And please don't tell me the Rattlesnake will be superior because of ~1400 DPS, that is what a good fitted Machariel is doing anyway with far better damage application.


Welcome the old and new king of LvL 4 mission farming, especially if you are in the blitzing mission business there will be no better ship like the Machariel.

Debatable. Some very rough number noodling:

With a Warp Speed I rig and a WS-610 implant, the Vargur can get 2.9 AU/s warp speed. Some blitzing numbers with such a Vargur:
Average Total Mission Time: 00:10:46
Average Travel Time 00:02:52 26.69%
Average In Misssion Time 00:07:24 68.67%
Average of 0.63 jumps for ~50 AU total distance or 25 AU each way.

A corresponding Mach would get 4AU/s. So with eyeball estimates, you're maybe saving around 20 seconds round trip with the Mach.

2:52 travel time goes down to 2:32 travel time. Giving us:
10m46s / 10m26s = 1.02, or a 2% gain in income from improved warp efficiency.

If you get that Mach up to 8 AU/s (ascendancy implants, 15% warp speed implant, 3 warp speed 1 rigs), you're probably knocking 40 seconds off round trip, for 10m46/ 10m06 = 1.07 or 7% increase in potential income.

If you were to somehow knock off a full minute off of travel time, that's 10m46s / 9m46s = 1.1, or a 10% gain in potential income.


Having said that, given that missile ships cannot make use of the slot 6 warp speed implant or from warp speed rigs (due to needing rigor rigs,) I could definitely see the Mach getting a minute advantage in warp speed against a CNR/Golem without spending a lot of isk to do so.


disclaimer: it's late, it's maths, I wouldn't be offended if you check my work.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
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