These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

PI whining and small gang PvP
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sebero Sinak
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-12-01 06:28:36 UTC
As far as shooting the POCO's in nullsec - we tried with two pilots..it's not going to happen again. It's like shooting a small POS.

As far as putting our own POCO's in a class 2 or higher wormhole ...thats not going to happen, you can get enough BS's in to take it down.

However a class 1 wormhole with the mass restriction....we will get all new POCO's as fast as possible. I doubt a fleet of t3 is going to find shooting multiple POCO's entertaining.

And as other's said lowsec POCO's will be rare.

It seemed to be a step in the right direction but i think it might backfire.

The opportunity to screw with your enemies is there for anyone who can get more then a few BS's together. The opportunity for profit is there if lowsec types can entice builders and PIers to work in thier lowsec and protect them. - kind of doubt that will happen

My conclusion ? ...I'm confused as hell
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#42 - 2011-12-01 06:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Sebero Sinak wrote:
As far as shooting the POCO's in nullsec - we tried with two pilots..it's not going to happen again. It's like shooting a small POS.

As far as putting our own POCO's in a class 2 or higher wormhole ...thats not going to happen, you can get enough BS's in to take it down.

However a class 1 wormhole with the mass restriction....we will get all new POCO's as fast as possible. I doubt a fleet of t3 is going to find shooting multiple POCO's entertaining.

And as other's said lowsec POCO's will be rare.

It seemed to be a step in the right direction but i think it might backfire.

The opportunity to screw with your enemies is there for anyone who can get more then a few BS's together. The opportunity for profit is there if lowsec types can entice builders and PIers to work in thier lowsec and protect them. - kind of doubt that will happen

My conclusion ? ...I'm confused as hell


Shooting down CO's is certainly doable, if mind numbingly boring, for those that have built up their ships in their home WH. For others wishing to come in and shoot a player owned one into reinforced... and then shoot it again when it comes out of reinforced... with the limited resources they can bring with them it's a much uglier proposition.

Not that it can't be done, thankfully, but it won't be undertaken lightly. It is much easier, if no less boring, to take one down in Null and Low sec. However, taking the time and dedicated effort to blow up any large structure like a POCO or POS is not something one does for "fun" in EVE. Not without a specific reason to do so. Not even a POCO or small POS.

As to the rest, I'll be surprised if more than a few Low Sec pirate organizations don't put up their own on really good planets. If they do they get:

Income from taxes.
Notified whenever you use it, which helps them to determine your PI pickup habits, which helps them in gank attempts.

It's like dangling bait on a hook. And if you don't think people will take that bait, just check out how many people fall for simple scams in local every single day. Except in this case, the PI guy actually has a good chance to profit off of the POCO being in place as long has they take steps to not become predictable.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-01 09:04:33 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


Intelligent people will leave their PI operations set up exactly as they are now, sans making some alterations due to the increased bandwidth allowing for a much more efficient set up than before.

If someone eventually blows up the current customs offices, you have lost nothing... you will merely be paying a slightly higher tax rate than folks do in High Sec.


Isn't blowing up POCOs and installing new ones two completely different things? Who says that the ones who blow up the offices install new ones?

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Ikarus Gaul
S I G M A
#44 - 2011-12-01 09:11:53 UTC
Hmmm... will shooting a POCO damage your standing with The Interbus and other allied factions? Will pilots doing so have to avoid travelling through Ourapheh?

Mind you, if you're trying to get in favour with pirate factions, that might be a plus! Pirate
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#45 - 2011-12-01 14:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Nyla Skin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


Intelligent people will leave their PI operations set up exactly as they are now, sans making some alterations due to the increased bandwidth allowing for a much more efficient set up than before.

If someone eventually blows up the current customs offices, you have lost nothing... you will merely be paying a slightly higher tax rate than folks do in High Sec.


Isn't blowing up POCOs and installing new ones two completely different things? Who says that the ones who blow up the offices install new ones?


I'm not sure where you are going with that question, but yes, anyone can blow them up... anyone can put up a new one.

Leave the Customs Office in place that is there already (Interbus), along with the PI operation that you already have set up. Your taxes will be a little higher than in Empire (but still profitable), and you will have time to get a sense of how aggressive your local Low Sec residents intend to be towards them. No need to trhow money away for no reason by trashing your infrastructure right away.

If they ignore them you can make a much more informed decision as to whether you want to risk putting up your own.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#46 - 2011-12-01 14:45:23 UTC
Ikarus Gaul wrote:
Hmmm... will shooting a POCO damage your standing with The Interbus and other allied factions? Will pilots doing so have to avoid travelling through Ourapheh?

Mind you, if you're trying to get in favour with pirate factions, that might be a plus! Pirate


There is no standings hit that I am aware of.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#47 - 2011-12-01 15:54:32 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Shooting down CO's is certainly doable, if mind numbingly boring, for those that have built up their ships in their home WH. For others wishing to come in and shoot a player owned one into reinforced... and then shoot it again when it comes out of reinforced... with the limited resources they can bring with them it's a much uglier proposition.

Not that it can't be done, thankfully, but it won't be undertaken lightly. It is much easier, if no less boring, to take one down in Null and Low sec. However, taking the time and dedicated effort to blow up any large structure like a POCO or POS is not something one does for "fun" in EVE. Not without a specific reason to do so. Not even a POCO or small POS.

As to the rest, I'll be surprised if more than a few Low Sec pirate organizations don't put up their own on really good planets. If they do they get:

Income from taxes.
Notified whenever you use it, which helps them to determine your PI pickup habits, which helps them in gank attempts.

It's like dangling bait on a hook. And if you don't think people will take that bait, just check out how many people fall for simple scams in local every single day. Except in this case, the PI guy actually has a good chance to profit off of the POCO being in place as long has they take steps to not become predictable.



R1, it's sounds like you've been away from the zoo that is lowsec too long. I've lost two med POS out there in the last three months to people who did it because they were bored. I'm willing to bet that POCOs become just another target for greifing.

The real problem is the perception of vulnerability over it's reality. If carebears in high sec perceive the POCO as a undefendable floating target that costs hundreds of millions of isk, they're not going to take a risk and buy one.

The problem with the bait thing is that word will get around that it's a trap within about five min on any of the pirate watch channels. This means that people would pack it in and go elsewhere fast, meaning they they spent 100-200m on a bait that is only good for a day or two.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#48 - 2011-12-01 16:05:10 UTC
Sebero Sinak wrote:
As far as shooting the POCO's in nullsec - we tried with two pilots..it's not going to happen again. It's like shooting a small POS.

As far as putting our own POCO's in a class 2 or higher wormhole ...thats not going to happen, you can get enough BS's in to take it down.

However a class 1 wormhole with the mass restriction....we will get all new POCO's as fast as possible. I doubt a fleet of t3 is going to find shooting multiple POCO's entertaining.

And as other's said lowsec POCO's will be rare.

It seemed to be a step in the right direction but i think it might backfire.

The opportunity to screw with your enemies is there for anyone who can get more then a few BS's together. The opportunity for profit is there if lowsec types can entice builders and PIers to work in thier lowsec and protect them. - kind of doubt that will happen

My conclusion ? ...I'm confused as hell


Well, regarding the C2 and up scenario, you're flat wrong on those... with the moronic tax rates CCP has imposed on us we're working to replace the Interbus pieces of crap with the PCO pieces of crap simply to avoid the stupid tax. It's basically a massive waste of isk that really offers little to no benefits over the old system for wormholes, but apparently even though CCP had this pointed out to them, Nullabor is so attached to his babies that reality had no chance of catching his attention. In C2's and above, they're not even good griefing tools... you need to have a sizeable enoug force to take one to reinforced, then you need to wait a minimum of 24 hrs for it to come out, then finish the job. However... you've lost your entry hole by then. Most people won't waste the time, effort or resources for something this stupid unless they're actually planning on taking the hole over.

Let's say they do waste the time, effort, ammo etc. for the KM. What happens? The residents, if they can't muster the forces to repel the griefers, simply make sure the PCO is empty, wait for the fools to leave after they get their shiny killmail then put up another.

For wormholes, this is just a waste of isk.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2011-12-01 16:07:11 UTC
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#50 - 2011-12-01 16:13:10 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !


Oh rly?

How many times do you see those corps taking the bait of one of their PCOs being attacked, rush to defend only to have a fleet of caps Cyno on top of them before you see them giving up, realizing it's not worth defending a 150M or so structure when you're losing your fleets trying?

Yeah... not too many. PCOs in low sec will be, by the more creative "pirates" at least, not direct targets of grief, but bait. Of course, if you don't take their bait they'll blow the **** out of the PCO anyhow and wait for someone else to plant one.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#51 - 2011-12-01 16:16:21 UTC
It's been said multiple times in the pages preceding this one, but unless prices do in fact increase proportionally to the new cost of doing business it won't make much sense to keep dodging you tough guys in lowsec anymore.

It's all going to depend on how high prices go up as a result, if they go up significantly and they almost certainly will (God I hope so) then you'll continue to see me motoring between all of my planets in lowsec again. If not, then well I'll keep missioning an hour or two a night until boredom wins.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#52 - 2011-12-01 16:22:32 UTC
Famble wrote:
It's been said multiple times in the pages preceding this one, but unless prices do in fact increase proportionally to the new cost of doing business it won't make much sense to keep dodging you tough guys in lowsec anymore.

It's all going to depend on how high prices go up as a result, if they go up significantly and they almost certainly will (God I hope so) then you'll continue to see me motoring between all of my planets in lowsec again. If not, then well I'll keep missioning an hour or two a night until boredom wins.


What'll you do, out of curiosity, when you motor to a low sec planet and the Interbus CO is gone with no replacement, simply because a bored little fleet felt like shooting something?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#53 - 2011-12-01 16:36:22 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Shooting down CO's is certainly doable, if mind numbingly boring, for those that have built up their ships in their home WH. For others wishing to come in and shoot a player owned one into reinforced... and then shoot it again when it comes out of reinforced... with the limited resources they can bring with them it's a much uglier proposition.

Not that it can't be done, thankfully, but it won't be undertaken lightly. It is much easier, if no less boring, to take one down in Null and Low sec. However, taking the time and dedicated effort to blow up any large structure like a POCO or POS is not something one does for "fun" in EVE. Not without a specific reason to do so. Not even a POCO or small POS.

As to the rest, I'll be surprised if more than a few Low Sec pirate organizations don't put up their own on really good planets. If they do they get:

Income from taxes.
Notified whenever you use it, which helps them to determine your PI pickup habits, which helps them in gank attempts.

It's like dangling bait on a hook. And if you don't think people will take that bait, just check out how many people fall for simple scams in local every single day. Except in this case, the PI guy actually has a good chance to profit off of the POCO being in place as long has they take steps to not become predictable.



R1, it's sounds like you've been away from the zoo that is lowsec too long. I've lost two med POS out there in the last three months to people who did it because they were bored. I'm willing to bet that POCOs become just another target for greifing.

The real problem is the perception of vulnerability over it's reality. If carebears in high sec perceive the POCO as a undefendable floating target that costs hundreds of millions of isk, they're not going to take a risk and buy one.

The problem with the bait thing is that word will get around that it's a trap within about five min on any of the pirate watch channels. This means that people would pack it in and go elsewhere fast, meaning they they spent 100-200m on a bait that is only good for a day or two.


I run a little PI on this character in low sec (although I don't stay on top of it like I should) but I don't currently have any POS's there. However judging from the people I speak with regularly that do your losing two mediums in 3 months "for no reason" would seem to be pretty unusual. Not that it doesn't happen, it's just usually there are other reasons for it than simple boredom. Obviously your milage may vary.

I do agree that the perception of vulnerabliity will keep a lot of people from planting their own POCO's, at least while the cost is still high (I have little doubt that they will drop fairly quickly). My point is for people that currently are doing Low Sec PI to continue doing so until the Interbus Customs Office that is already in place gets blown up, if it ever does. There is no sense in trashing their setup without an accurate assessment of the risks in their area.

As far as the bait thing not working, that will be situational. You know as well as I do a pirate camp can be a regular occurance on a gate, but people will still go through it regularly... no matter how well known it is in pirate watch channels.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#54 - 2011-12-01 16:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Famble wrote:
It's been said multiple times in the pages preceding this one, but unless prices do in fact increase proportionally to the new cost of doing business it won't make much sense to keep dodging you tough guys in lowsec anymore.

It's all going to depend on how high prices go up as a result, if they go up significantly and they almost certainly will (God I hope so) then you'll continue to see me motoring between all of my planets in lowsec again. If not, then well I'll keep missioning an hour or two a night until boredom wins.


What'll you do, out of curiosity, when you motor to a low sec planet and the Interbus CO is gone with no replacement, simply because a bored little fleet felt like shooting something?


That will depend on whether it gets blown up within a week of this patch, or a year later. As well as on whether a new "group" has moved into the area to stay.

There is little sense in simply destroying an existing setup based on the fact that the Interbus CO "might" get blown up.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#55 - 2011-12-01 16:45:22 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !


Oh rly?

How many times do you see those corps taking the bait of one of their PCOs being attacked, rush to defend only to have a fleet of caps Cyno on top of them before you see them giving up, realizing it's not worth defending a 150M or so structure when you're losing your fleets trying?

Yeah... not too many. PCOs in low sec will be, by the more creative "pirates" at least, not direct targets of grief, but bait. Of course, if you don't take their bait they'll blow the **** out of the PCO anyhow and wait for someone else to plant one.


I'll grant you, putting a POCO within easy jump range of alliance Cap ship staging systems will be problematic. It will all depend on whether they consider spending time on the initial attack a worthwhile investment for the amount of pew pew it might provoke. If you are a 5 man operation you probably aren't worth their time, but if you have a hundred pilots in your corp that might be more tempting.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-12-01 16:59:38 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !


Oh rly?

How many times do you see those corps taking the bait of one of their PCOs being attacked, rush to defend only to have a fleet of caps Cyno on top of them before you see them giving up, realizing it's not worth defending a 150M or so structure when you're losing your fleets trying?

Yeah... not too many. PCOs in low sec will be, by the more creative "pirates" at least, not direct targets of grief, but bait. Of course, if you don't take their bait they'll blow the **** out of the PCO anyhow and wait for someone else to plant one.


well, these corps could have their own (super)caps ;)
Hershman
Creepers Corporation
#57 - 2011-12-01 17:01:58 UTC
Personally I would like to see more structures destroyable and raid-able to small gangs.

I play EVE every day! Follow me at http://www.twitch.tv/matthershman
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#58 - 2011-12-01 17:09:33 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:


What'll you do, out of curiosity, when you motor to a low sec planet and the Interbus CO is gone with no replacement, simply because a bored little fleet felt like shooting something?


Look, I'm a solo dude so putting up my own poco is simply out of the question. It would take forever to make that investment back and with no way to defend it it's a non-starter.

So to answer your direct question, I'd look for a new planet.

I'm not patently against this change, really I'm not. But feelings are irrelevant; if I can't pass my increased costs onto my customers I simply won't keep producing. I'm a moron and even I know it'd be time to close up shop and go find something else to do.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#59 - 2011-12-01 17:29:10 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !


Oh rly?

How many times do you see those corps taking the bait of one of their PCOs being attacked, rush to defend only to have a fleet of caps Cyno on top of them before you see them giving up, realizing it's not worth defending a 150M or so structure when you're losing your fleets trying?

Yeah... not too many. PCOs in low sec will be, by the more creative "pirates" at least, not direct targets of grief, but bait. Of course, if you don't take their bait they'll blow the **** out of the PCO anyhow and wait for someone else to plant one.


well, these corps could have their own (super)caps ;)


Yeah, those high sec corps that run their PI in low have tons of those lying around. Roll

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-12-01 17:52:37 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
i dont see pirate gangs shooting everyone in sight

i see corps building (and defending !) a poco network to gain a steady income from it

think positive everyone !


Oh rly?

How many times do you see those corps taking the bait of one of their PCOs being attacked, rush to defend only to have a fleet of caps Cyno on top of them before you see them giving up, realizing it's not worth defending a 150M or so structure when you're losing your fleets trying?

Yeah... not too many. PCOs in low sec will be, by the more creative "pirates" at least, not direct targets of grief, but bait. Of course, if you don't take their bait they'll blow the **** out of the PCO anyhow and wait for someone else to plant one.


well, these corps could have their own (super)caps ;)


Yeah, those high sec corps that run their PI in low have tons of those lying around. Roll



highsec corps becoming lowsec corps Blink