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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#161 - 2014-04-15 16:32:22 UTC
This will be fun.

Thank you CCP (and possibly CSM).

The age of Aquarius is over, this is the age of Vulcan ;)

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Callic Veratar
#162 - 2014-04-15 16:32:44 UTC
Slappy Andven wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're not removing the ability to lock down blueprints in your station. You can still lock down as before and build, research and copy using the infinite slots in the station.


It's almost like this is adding risk if players want free researching... Roll


Researching at a POS is not free. First, fuel costs went up by a huge factor with the fuel blocks, which someone has to pay for, and then this. Your post makes literally no sense at all.


So pull down your POS and substitute the fuel cost for the station fees. This isn't as hard as you're trying to make it.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2014-04-15 16:33:03 UTC
Querns wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:

BPOs are suppose to be like PLEX or rare items, they are investments. Literally no one who is remotely intelligent is ever going to use a POS for copying after this change. The risk is too extreme. Sure, I keep around 1 - 2B in materials in my manufacturing POS, but my 10 - 15B worth of BPOs will never ever be taken to a POS. Why would I ever make such a risk? Unless you bring the copy time on Advanced Labs down to something obscene like .10 multiplier or give 10x the copy yield, then NO ONE is EVER going to copy at a POS ever again.

Holy risk aversion, Batman.

People with the stones to accept the risk will totally do it. This is how the game is changing, in most things -- accepting risk allows you to profit.


Risk aversion? No, I make all my money off poses in 0.0. It is not a matter of risk aversion, it is basically the fact that it only costs at most 1m isk for me to JF to a low sec system nearby and do all my copying there, and then JF the copies back to my 0.0 POS. The reward for the increased risk can not ever be met. That is my point.
Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2014-04-15 16:34:28 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Xaniff wrote:

2. I predict there will be even more abandoned POSes out hogging all the spaces next to the moons. There needs to be some mechanic for these to be abandoned and destroyed in a reasonable amount of time after running out of fuel and failing to be maintained (like the secure containers that are lost, whether they hold goods or not).


Yeah, that's a good point, we'll note that one down.


Would the POS legacy code break if people were able to use a hacking mod on a POS that is out of fuel in order to unanchor it?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2014-04-15 16:35:57 UTC
I really appreciate the pos standings change, but have you considered this makes it trivial to avoid wardecs even with a pos? Before, losing your standings if you had a pos was the only reason you wouldn't immediately remake your corp, now...not so much.

Will you be taking any steps to make wardec evasion harder through remaking the corporation?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#166 - 2014-04-15 16:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Should probably wait. To your previous post, the UI is going to reduce the number of clicks required to both install and preview/adjust a job to almost none. Our goal was driven by the idea that we want both batch and single blueprint job installation to be painless but fun. I don't want to spoil the next few blogs so I will leave it at that.

As to the cost scaling based on activity in a system, I will simply say that you should notice the impact on cost of working in a busy system, but the blog should go into all the detail you need.

Sounds good. I'll try to hold back the questions for the relevant blogs then.

The UI bit is just something I've been sitting on for too long, and I think that's been one of the biggest sources of actual “gameplay” headaches: the way it is designed is very… how should I say… programmer:ish. It looks like it's built right on top of the DB and item structure with no abstraction whatsoever. It's literally “take object A, feed into function B with parameters C and D”.

If that could be transformed into, or adjusted to provide, the actual human workflow through a carefully selected abstraction layer that deals with the actual functionality setup, the pain would go away. And in truth, that workflow begins with the location — the place where you have already gathered all your blueprints and materials — rather than with the blueprints themselves.

The mockup looks like it's more focused on drag-and-drop than the usual EVE right-clicking-vaganza, though, and that would already a huge step forward.
Valterra Craven
#167 - 2014-04-15 16:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:

BPOs are suppose to be like PLEX or rare items, they are investments. Literally no one who is remotely intelligent is ever going to use a POS for copying after this change. The risk is too extreme. Sure, I keep around 1 - 2B in materials in my manufacturing POS, but my 10 - 15B worth of BPOs will never ever be taken to a POS. Why would I ever make such a risk? Unless you bring the copy time on Advanced Labs down to something obscene like .10 multiplier or give 10x the copy yield, then NO ONE is EVER going to copy at a POS ever again.

Holy risk aversion, Batman.

People with the stones to accept the risk will totally do it. This is how the game is changing, in most things -- accepting risk allows you to profit.


Except that now the risk is very high while the reward is very low. Manufacturing was never a very rewarding gameplay feature.

No, actually, it's really not. You get wardecced, you cancel the job, you cycle the pos to a new corporation, you restart the job. I guess this makes the job interruptible, but not truly at risk.



This is all well and good for research jobs were there is nothing of value at risk, but this changes things completely when you have manufacturing jobs and uninstalling them means you lose the minerals you installed for that job...
Slappy Andven
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2014-04-15 16:37:40 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Sure, this is a humorous thing, but the larger point is that there is an entire system in place for this. You are basically destroying a system that has been in place since invention was added to the game. You are forcing insane amounts of risk that can almost never be given a proper reward for without either destroying the eve economy, or over buffing POS copying. I do not think that the devs who proposed this change can come even close to understanding the ramifications for it.


This.

This whole Dev Blog has convinced me that the Dev's have zero understanding of how industrialists work in this game. This will end up being like the bad nerfs to Incursions that had to be backed out because they rendered incursions unplayable. When you can't buy ships because we won't make them, you know who to come back and complain to.

Or, everything gets switched to station manufacturing, and the prices on everything goes through the roof as a result. Yay, inflation! Good job, Devs!

Is there a SINGLE Dev who spent significant time building things in this game, or are you just all from Goons and the like? I'm trying really hard to keep this positive, but it's a challenge. It's clear to me that the days of horribly bad decisions on the part of CCP are very far from over. You're out of side projects like WoD to kill to make up for bad decisions like this. What will you kill next?

-- 

Slappy Andven

CEO Natural Born Killas

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
#169 - 2014-04-15 16:37:50 UTC
I hate to be that guy, but: any content for shooting-at-people stuff, or any development along the explore-new-shenanigans and make-new-implants realm?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#170 - 2014-04-15 16:39:23 UTC
Summer is coming (tm)

Also - while rethinking UI elements pls add link to blueprint to every intem somewhere in that item show info (so for example in raven's show info i can click on blueprint for raven to see its production info)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2014-04-15 16:39:38 UTC
Slappy Andven wrote:

This whole Dev Blog has convinced me that the Dev's have zero understanding of how industrialists work in this game. This will end up being like the bad nerfs to Incursions that had to be backed out because they rendered incursions unplayable. When you can't buy ships because we won't make them, you know who to come back and complain to.

Or, everything gets switched to station manufacturing, and the prices on everything goes through the roof as a result. Yay, inflation! Good job, Devs!

Is there a SINGLE Dev who spent significant time building things in this game, or are you just all from Goons and the like? I'm trying really hard to keep this positive, but it's a challenge. It's clear to me that the days of horribly bad decisions on the part of CCP are very far from over. You're out of side projects like WoD to kill to make up for bad decisions like this. What will you kill next?

if costs go up that means that industry becomes more profitable and people can make money by displacing you

sounds ok to me

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2014-04-15 16:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
On a related note:

The removal of standings for anchoring POS makes it trivial to evade destruction of your POS. Right now, if you want to move your POS to a new corporation upon wardec, it takes seven (7) days for standings to promulgate to the corporation's standings. This had the effect of severely limiting the amount of "POS cycling" that could occur. With the removal of standings from the equation, it is now a reasonable response, upon being wardecced, to create a new corporation, unanchor the POS under wardec, and sit on the moon in question in a cloaked industrial sitting in the new, unwardecced corporation, ready to anchor a new pos when the old one comes up.

I suggest that a new corporation be required to wait seven (7) days before being eligible to anchor a new pos. This brings the new era in line with the convoluted, yet functional system that exists today.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#173 - 2014-04-15 16:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Querns wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:

BPOs are suppose to be like PLEX or rare items, they are investments. Literally no one who is remotely intelligent is ever going to use a POS for copying after this change. The risk is too extreme. Sure, I keep around 1 - 2B in materials in my manufacturing POS, but my 10 - 15B worth of BPOs will never ever be taken to a POS. Why would I ever make such a risk? Unless you bring the copy time on Advanced Labs down to something obscene like .10 multiplier or give 10x the copy yield, then NO ONE is EVER going to copy at a POS ever again.

Holy risk aversion, Batman.

People with the stones to accept the risk will totally do it. This is how the game is changing, in most things -- accepting risk allows you to profit.

Tbh, I get the feeling that the main idea with these changes is that a lot of work should be done through BPCs rather than directly from the BPOs. So you still store up all your BPOs in a secure location as before, and then copy them for external use — those copies become consumables that have to be carted around much like all the materials you already have to truck around if you want to use POSes for manufacturing.

Of course, this relies on copying being far more efficient than it currently is so that it at least matches production times 1:1.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#174 - 2014-04-15 16:40:10 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
And the obvious question has to be asked ofc, will the industry changes be tied into CREST ?


We will at the very least be updating the static export with new blueprint data, and I'll try and get this out to devs before the release.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2014-04-15 16:40:59 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
I hate to be that guy, but: any content for shooting-at-people stuff, or any development along the explore-new-shenanigans and make-new-implants realm?



There will be POS's everywhere and those POS's are now slightly more likely to contain BPO's. I'm pretty sure the shooting-at-people demographic is getting an indirect buff here ;)
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2014-04-15 16:41:37 UTC
Teams, Slots, and Industry

The idea of blogs about teams gave me a quick possible idea for the future changes. This is pure speculation based on hints in this dev blog. I don't have any special information. I am probably wrong about some of this.

Stations are given a number of teams instead of slots. They work on everything in the queue starting with the first job entered. When they complete a job the team moves to the next job. When the team is in high demand and is required to work for many days straight then they demand higher wages (increase costs). The teams can work on ME, PE, copying, or manufacturing based on the station's facilities (station either can research ME or not). POSes are designed similarly with speed increases for various jobs.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2014-04-15 16:42:14 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
this is what i've been looking forwards to for a while, i'm very happy with this

@kitty bear, Calorn Marthor, Vincent Athena, the list of systems you can't do PI in might be a good indicator as to where you won't be able to erect a starbase?

was it planetary interaction or something else that had restricted systems :S

e: there we go


looks like it's going to be both lists then
(I didn't even know there was a PI restriction list either)

that's still an awful lot of systems left to use though, so I don't see any real reason for people whinging about those restrictions Cool
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#178 - 2014-04-15 16:42:37 UTC
When you say "14% of cost" as the max slot fee, what does that mean for research jobs? That only makes sense for manufacturing.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Kaius Fero
#179 - 2014-04-15 16:42:53 UTC
I have not much to comment except this:
Quote:
Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).


Now.. tell me this was a typo! Are you guys serious about this?! I mean.. there are thousand of players whom spent like months grinding those stupid cosmos missions just to be able to drop a POS in hi sec and now your like.. "lol suckers!"

I'm not ragging because the change, I think it's a good thing because grinding those missions was/is a pain. But I'm pretty mad that I had to spend so many weeks .. for nothing. Same as skilling for refining, now every noob with a POS will be able to refine as good as I do .. wtf?!

I'm seriously concerned about how you guys start to change the game and lol about stuff that required a significant effort to get there. If this trend continues, I expect that soon we will be able to fly Titan's in Jita and it will require only 1 day to skill for it :/ I don't have any reason to skill up anymore, anytime you guys can change how the game works and just laugh about it... I'm already feeling like playing a themepark.

And regarding the risk vs reward.. yeah, I can see the risk, but where exactly is the reward?

Anselmo & The Illegals

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#180 - 2014-04-15 16:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Chribba wrote:
I will be there.

Removal of blueprints in stations suddenly became a major game changer!

/c

Indeed, though not as much of a game changer (for most players) as the scaling cost to manufacture. Marketing hubs will likely no longer also be industrial hubs... and as industry spreads out so to may the market landscape. Otherwise locally manufacture goods will rapidly become unprofitable compared with imported goods that were manufactured in less busy systems.

This will also encourage more transportation of goods for those that still wish to still sell their items in the big hubs.

Win WIN!!!

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