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0.0 my response to something written in another thread and a point.

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Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#1 - 2014-04-14 20:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
Eugene Kerner wrote:



The need for those movements that united in the sight of the common bumper-enemy decreases with this development.
While more and more 0.0 alliances struggle to find enough industrialists or miners seeding their markets, high sec afk mining and botting is prosperous and florishes.





If 0.0 Alliances need their markets seeded and their industry boosted, and if they are so desperate for these industrialists, they know where to find them. The problem is their attitude toward these individuals which without whom they would not have ships to pvp with.

If the 0.0 Alliances, would change their attitude, or if the SoV mechanics required the actual "Use" of systems to maintain sovereignty (Ie Mining, Ratting, etc).

Then the larger alliances would have absolutely no issues finding these individuals.

1. In an organization, it is the responsibility of those with Combat power and prowess to protect those who's job it is to maintain the very weapons and ships used to carry out the Alliances will as a whole (Industrialists). If they are unwilling to do so, is it really a surprise why none wish to join?

2. Would you if you were an industrialist, be willing to join an organization that jeered and made fun of you, when they fail to realize without you they themselves would cease to exist?

Many capital pilots, and decent pvpers prefer Industry, in fact many have 70-100 mil Sp indy characters. But the real question you might ask is why don't they use them? Well in 0.0 the answer is simple. Why take risks, when your reward is being left to fend for yourself, jeered at and made fun of by the very people your are attempting to assist with such?

No one wants to work in that type of environment. I have a 70 million SP titan building indy character myself. I also have an 80 million SP Double Dreadnaught Mom Character. Personally I prefer Indy. And I choose to spend my days in highsec these days simply because the 0.0 alliances I have spoken to thus far are well... Pricks....

So if you all in 0.0 who are interested in these "Rare" industrialists, really want them, stop calling them carebears, Stop insulting them, Start actually protecting them, and helping them. Do this and I guarantee you, you will never want for ships, minerals or other industrial needs or assets.

But i can also understand how it is difficult for a pvper to take that stance, most do not have the desire to protect, only to kill. Thus unless you are willing to change yourselves and your policies, you will continue to seek the ever elusive Industrialist, who... like me, may (And most likely does) just have a very nasty PvP character tied to them..... In the end you can choose to change and adapt to achieve your goals and wants, or simply hear us say...

Your loss.

I mean after all, were billionaires, why do we need you? On the other hand, you do need us.

Just some food for thought.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2 - 2014-04-14 22:09:56 UTC
[/quote]

Your post shows a profound lack of understanding!

Lilly Naari wrote:



If 0.0 Alliances need their markets seeded and their industry boosted, and if they are so desperate for these industrialists, they know where to find them. The problem is their attitude toward these individuals which without whom they would not have ships to pvp with.

If the 0.0 Alliances, would change their attitude, or if the SoV mechanics required the actual "Use" of systems to maintain sovereignty (Ie Mining, Ratting, etc).

Then the larger alliances would have absolutely no issues finding these individuals.

1. In an organization, it is the responsibility of those with Combat power and prowess to protect those who's job it is to maintain the very weapons and ships used to carry out the Alliances will as a whole (Industrialists). If they are unwilling to do so, is it really a surprise why none wish to join?

2. Would you if you were an industrialist, be willing to join an organization that jeered and made fun of you, when they fail to realize without you they themselves would cease to exist?

Many capital pilots, and decent pvpers prefer Industry, in fact many have 70-100 mil Sp indy characters. But the real question you might ask is why don't they use them? Well in 0.0 the answer is simple. Why take risks, when your reward is being left to fend for yourself, jeered at and made fun of by the very people your are attempting to assist with such?

No one wants to work in that type of environment. I have a 70 million SP titan building indy character myself. I also have an 80 million SP Double Dreadnaught Mom Character. Personally I prefer Indy. And I choose to spend my days in highsec these days simply because the 0.0 alliances I have spoken to thus far are well... Pricks....

So if you all in 0.0 who are interested in these "Rare" industrialists, really want them, stop calling them carebears, Stop insulting them, Start actually protecting them, and helping them. Do this and I guarantee you, you will never want for ships, minerals or other industrial needs or assets.

But i can also understand how it is difficult for a pvper to take that stance, most do not have the desire to protect, only to kill. Thus unless you are willing to change yourselves and your policies, you will continue to seek the ever elusive Industrialist, who... like me, may (And most likely does) just have a very nasty PvP character tied to them..... In the end you can choose to change and adapt to achieve your goals and wants, or simply hear us say...

Your loss.

I mean after all, were billionaires, why do we need you? On the other hand, you do need us.

Just some food for thought.


Points you seem to not understand:

1.) There is no innate benefit to building in nullsec. It's one-outpost-per-system setup results in much less manufacturing lines available, unless you use a POS (which is vulnerable, wonky, and more expensive to utilize). It is farther from the materials you will need for serious production (minerals, datacores, complex moon materials, PI Products, etc). It is harder to offload items when you overproduce (less customers around). So, with all of these drawbacks, on top of the much riskier environment, there is literally no advantage to building in nullsec.

2.) It is not the job of anyone to play sentry for you and yours, especially when you are making isk and they are not. What type of self-entitled bullshit attitude is that? The first rule everyone in nullsec abides by is you are the player primarily responsible for keeping your stuff safe. When people talk about nullsec industrialists, they refer to players that can swap ships, join the response gang, and help defend the space. At the end of the day, if you cannot and/or will not defend your space (which entails bringing out that "nasty PvP character"), of course they don't want you. It's a dog eat dog world, and pacifists have no place here!

3.) I'm a big proponent of a "use it or easily lose it" Sov system. For example, if a system is not being utilized, I'd eliminate all RF timers on Sov structures in the system, so Sov could be lost in a single attack. However, how you define "using a system" is important. PI activity, POS operations, Mining, Plexing, Ratting, Logistics, Marketeering, and PvP are all viable ways to use a system. I think the military and industrial indexes are great barometers that a system is being used, but the system needs to account for much more than mining and ratting activities.

Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#3 - 2014-04-14 22:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
Quote:


Points you seem to not understand:

1.) There is no innate benefit to building in nullsec. It's one-outpost-per-system setup results in much less manufacturing lines available, unless you use a POS (which is vulnerable, wonky, and more expensive to utilize). It is farther from the materials you will need for serious production (minerals, datacores, complex moon materials, PI Products, etc). It is harder to offload items when you overproduce (less customers around). So, with all of these drawbacks, on top of the much riskier environment, there is literally no advantage to building in nullsec.

2.) It is not the job of anyone to play sentry for you and yours, especially when you are making isk and they are not. What type of self-entitled bullshit attitude is that? The first rule everyone in nullsec abides by is you are the player primarily responsible for keeping your stuff safe. When people talk about nullsec industrialists, they refer to players that can swap ships, join the response gang, and help defend the space. At the end of the day, if you cannot and/or will not defend your space (which entails bringing out that "nasty PvP character"), of course they don't want you. It's a dog eat dog world, and pacifists have no place here!

3.) I'm a big proponent of a "use it or easily lose it" Sov system. For example, if a system is not being utilized, I'd eliminate all RF timers on Sov structures in the system, so Sov could be lost in a single attack. However, how you define "using a system" is important. PI activity, POS operations, Mining, Plexing, Ratting, Logistics, Marketeering, and PvP are all viable ways to use a system. I think the military and industrial indexes are great barometers that a system is being used, but the system needs to account for much more than mining and ratting activities.



I have a rebuttal to your 1. and 2. statements but I agree with your 3rd.

Like many it seems, you do not understand 0.0 industry as it applies to an industrialist and their "Job" as part of an Alliance or null sec corp. you are confusing someone who mines or builds for sole profit, with an Alliance / Corp based Industrialist. Which are 2 entirely different creatures. You also seem to miss the fact that he who controls the market / economy in the region, controls the region. Not you the PvPer who are reliant on such for your gear and without which, you would wither and die.

Let me explain the reality to you:

1. There's plenty of advantage to building in nullsec, In fact I prefer it. But I am not going to explain why to you. Call it a trade secret. Most of those issues you listed are simply logistical issues, which in no way apply to anyone who is an actual industrialist, especially if their alliance actually supports them (As they should).

2. So your telling me you would not protect and support the individuals building your ships, which by the way you need for pvp, your ammo, and your modules? Or are at least if not building them, getting them to your 0.0 market at a decent price, so you can use them... Affordably?

If this is what you truly think, then I feel sorry for you and your alliance if it thinks the same way.

It's people with this opinion that belong to Alliances which eventually die by attrition, or happened to **** one of us off, who controls the market in your region and we decide we do not want you there anymore, and make sure you can not buy or purchase anything and have to go an entire region over to get a single tech 2 mod or decent ship, while simultaneously ensuring the people fighting you are well supplied with low prices in their region.

The game the real industrialist play involves creating and destroying Alliances across vast regions simply because we want to, and without ever firing a single shot. The thing you need to understand is that all empires, all people and everything in Eve like in real life, is based on money. He who controls the ebb and flow of goods, controls the empire and dictates the rules.

* An industrialist (Or multiple Industrialists) which belong to an Alliance does this for the Alliance. They ensure your market stays full, has what your alliance needs, and ensures your enemy does not. We are the one type of people in Eve that will make or break an Alliance. Compared to an industrialists ability to manipulate the economy and market across multiple regions, As a single PvPer, you are insignificant in value, unless you are useful or make yourself useful to us at which point you will find yourself with plenty of ships, ammo, mods, companants, and even ISK. We are the ones who you want as friends and allies, and the ones who your enemies truly fear.

Anyone can fly a ship and shoot things. Very few people can bring an Alliance to it's knees simply by manipulating the flow of goods and the market itself, as well as the management of super capitals and capitals and their various needs and logistics.

You don't want to protect us? Fine. Good luck fending off the next Alliance that comes trundling through your territory when you have no ships and no ammo and when your convoys mysteriously get ganked and hot dropped in rout, and do not be surprised when the enemy never seems to run out of ships.

A true industrialist is the real power in Eve, and these are the Industrialists Alliances seek. Not Helping them and protecting them, while they are trying to HELP YOU. Is a very stupid idea.

Like I said:

We don't need you, for anything. You need us. And our price "For helping YOU" is your protection, which is a small one at that. because why would we help you, if we need to protect ourselves (Since legitimately that's the only real thing we need from anyone, or rather which anyone can actually offer us in payment)? No, if we are required to protect ourselves (which we can) were simply going to help ourselves and tell you to GTOF.



3. I agree with you on this.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2014-04-15 00:13:42 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:


I have a rebuttal to your 1. and 2. statements but I agree with your 3rd.

Like many it seems, you do not understand 0.0 industry as it applies to an industrialist and their "Job" as part of an Alliance or null sec corp. you are confusing someone who mines or builds for sole profit, with an Alliance / Corp based Industrialist. Which are 2 entirely different creatures. You also seem to miss the fact that he who controls the market / economy in the region, controls the region. Not you the PvPer who are reliant on such for your gear and without which, you would wither and die.



While there are some space communes in the game, most groups PvE to supplement their own wallet. I myself build ships, modules, and ammo for my nullsec corp, and put them on the market at near-jita prices. We have several members in my corp that regularly stock the market with reasonably priced goods (some as resellers, and others and producers like myself), making us far more relient on logistics than industrialists.

Lilly Naari wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Points you seem to not understand:

1.) There is no innate benefit to building in nullsec. It's one-outpost-per-system setup results in much less manufacturing lines available, unless you use a POS (which is vulnerable, wonky, and more expensive to utilize). It is farther from the materials you will need for serious production (minerals, datacores, complex moon materials, PI Products, etc). It is harder to offload items when you overproduce (less customers around). So, with all of these drawbacks, on top of the much riskier environment, there is literally no advantage to building in nullsec.



1. There's plenty of advantage to building in nullsec, In fact I prefer it. But I am not going to explain why to you. Call it a trade secret. Most of those issues you listed are simply logistical issues, which in no way apply to anyone who is an actual industrialist, especially if their alliance actually supports them (As they should).



I do not build locally, as I have yet have a reason to do so. I realize this is different than a large sov alliance which have many members that may mine the local roids providing access to cheaper minerals, as well as those that may experience lower POS operating costs, but these costs savings often aren't worth the risks which only exist at the graces of others. Perhaps I'm too small time with my indy toons, but I know what my industrial needs are and I get them met more efficiently in highsec than in nullsec.


Also, if someone is calling you a carebear, it is not simply because you are risk adverse:


Carebear is more than just risk adverse. Everyone in this game limits the risks to their assets, because they will lose them if they don't. No, carebear is much more than that:

For example, running missions in highsec doesn't make you a carebear. A carebear will run missions while not only ingoring the reality that other players can still attack you in highsec, but then raging if/when it happens with claims that CCP/Concord should prevent it.

For example, mining in highsec doesn't make you a carebear. A carebear mines roids believing they have a fundamental right to do so without interference, and then flips out when someone stops them from mining until they pay a protection racket fee.

For example, hauling goods from point A to point B through highsec doesn't make you a carebear. A carebearl hauls valuable goods expecting undisruptable movement across highsec, only to cry on the forums that someone destroyed their ship to steal/loot their valuable cargo.

For example, buying goods and reselling them for profit doesn't make you a carebear. A carebear trader incorrectly assumes all buy orders are guaranteed, and flips out when they find incompleteable buy orders exist specifically to lure them into buying overpriced, slow moving assets they can't make a profit on.

For example, manufacturing goods in this game doesn't make you a carebear. A carebear expects everything they build to be profitable, and complains about how unfair it is others have cheaper sources of materials or rare limited edition blueprints.

For example, being in a noob corp doesn't make you a carebear. A carebear refuses to leave the noobcorp because they can't cope with the knowledge that in player run corps your corpmates may attack you without concord intervention.

Fundamentally, a carebear is someone that believes they deserve to operate in a risk-free, immune to non-consensual PvP environment.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2014-04-15 00:14:48 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


2.) It is not the job of anyone to play sentry for you and yours, especially when you are making isk and they are not. What type of self-entitled bullshit attitude is that? The first rule everyone in nullsec abides by is you are the player primarily responsible for keeping your stuff safe. When people talk about nullsec industrialists, they refer to players that can swap ships, join the response gang, and help defend the space. At the end of the day, if you cannot and/or will not defend your space (which entails bringing out that "nasty PvP character"), of course they don't want you. It's a dog eat dog world, and pacifists have no place here!




2. So your telling me you would not protect and support the individuals building your ships, which by the way you need for pvp, your ammo, and your modules? Or are at least if not building them, getting them to your 0.0 market at a decent price, so you can use them... Affordably?

If this is what you truly think, then I feel sorry for you and your alliance if it thinks the same way.

It's people with this opinion that belong to Alliances which eventually die by attrition, or happened to **** one of us off, who controls the market in your region and we decide we do not want you there anymore, and make sure you can not buy or purchase anything and have to go an entire region over to get a single tech 2 mod or decent ship, while simultaneously ensuring the people fighting you are well supplied with low prices in their region.

The game the real industrialist play involves creating and destroying Alliances across vast regions simply because we want to, and without ever firing a single shot. The thing you need to understand is that all empires, all people and everything in Eve like in real life, is based on money. He who controls the ebb and flow of goods, controls the empire and dictates the rules.

* An industrialist (Or multiple Industrialists) which belong to an Alliance does this for the Alliance. They ensure your market stays full, has what your alliance needs, and ensures your enemy does not. We are the one type of people in Eve that will make or break an Alliance. Compared to an industrialists ability to manipulate the economy and market across multiple regions, As a single PvPer, you are insignificant in value, unless you are useful or make yourself useful to us at which point you will find yourself with plenty of ships, ammo, mods, companants, and even ISK. We are the ones who you want as friends and allies, and the ones who your enemies truly fear.

Anyone can fly a ship and shoot things. Very few people can bring an Alliance to it's knees simply by manipulating the flow of goods and the market itself, as well as the management of super capitals and capitals and their various needs and logistics.

You don't want to protect us? Fine. Good luck fending off the next Alliance that comes trundling through your territory when you have no ships and no ammo and when your convoys mysteriously get ganked and hot dropped in rout, and do not be surprised when the enemy never seems to run out of ships.

A true industrialist is the real power in Eve, and these are the Industrialists Alliances seek. Not Helping them and protecting them, while they are trying to HELP YOU. Is a very stupid idea.

Like I said:

We don't need you, for anything. You need us. And our price "For helping YOU" is your protection, which is a small one at that. because why would we help you, if we need to protect ourselves (Since legitimately that's the only real thing we need from anyone, or rather which anyone can actually offer us in payment)? No, if we are required to protect ourselves (which we can) were simply going to help ourselves and tell you to GTOF.


You are grossly mistaken here.
a.) A logistics player can bring items in at an affordable rate, and the only protection they need is recon prior to lighting a noobship cyno. There is no way in hell I'd sit around a belt for 4 hours watching hulks mine. I fully expect those hulks to get safe, swap to combat vessels, and help fend off any gangs in the area.

b.) In this day and age, major sov wars are won and lost by attrition of wills, not attrition of resources. Smaller scale sov wars are won by overwhelming force, not by attrition of resources. If logistics was nerfed into the ground, making it much harder to supply a region from empire, your day may come. Until then, your contribution will be classified as "a nice size".

c.) Please, buy my market out... I'll just restock the market again and enjoy the profits. Your economic threat has little meaning to most nullsec entities.

d.) Perhaps I'm not a "real industrialist". I generally have <20b in non-ship sell orders, I generally have only two toons producing, I vary my production between items rather than producing at max efficiency, and I typically don't harvest resources myself (other than PI). At the same time, I'm CEO of a decent sized nullsec PvP corp and I can tell you that in the current environment we need players to move items from highsec to our local market. We need players to stock the markets and contracts. Having in-house industrialists to produce items "cheaper" is one of those nice-to-have power window options that aren't nearly as important as you seem to think. From my experience, the health of a alliance is almost entirely measured in how much content does your alliance generate for your members. A strong industrial wing is not essential to the majority of playstyles.

Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#6 - 2014-04-15 02:33:42 UTC

Quote:

You are grossly mistaken here.
a.) A logistics player can bring items in at an affordable rate, and the only protection they need is recon prior to lighting a noobship cyno. There is no way in hell I'd sit around a belt for 4 hours watching hulks mine. I fully expect those hulks to get safe, swap to combat vessels, and help fend off any gangs in the area.

b.) In this day and age, major sov wars are won and lost by attrition of wills, not attrition of resources. Smaller scale sov wars are won by overwhelming force, not by attrition of resources. If logistics was nerfed into the ground, making it much harder to supply a region from empire, your day may come. Until then, your contribution will be classified as "a nice size".

c.) Please, buy my market out... I'll just restock the market again and enjoy the profits. Your economic threat has little meaning to most nullsec entities.

d.) Perhaps I'm not a "real industrialist". I generally have <20b in non-ship sell orders, I generally have only two toons producing, I vary my production between items rather than producing at max efficiency, and I typically don't harvest resources myself (other than PI). At the same time, I'm CEO of a decent sized nullsec PvP corp and I can tell you that in the current environment we need players to move items from highsec to our local market. We need players to stock the markets and contracts. Having in-house industrialists to produce items "cheaper" is one of those nice-to-have power window options that aren't nearly as important as you seem to think. From my experience, the health of a alliance is almost entirely measured in how much content does your alliance generate for your members. A strong industrial wing is not essential to the majority of playstyles.



1. A logistics player can yes, and the industrialist can simply buy them and stockpile forcing the price up repeatedly until the logistics player can't cope with it.

Or

If I'm feeling frisky, I would just make everything dirt cheap, It would be a loss to me in the short run, but in the long run he would have to match my prices at the lower rate or fail to make money at which point I would continually buy his now cheap stuff and list it higher. then when the time was right, strip the market and force your alliance to pay top dollar or risk loosing your JF's to the invading alliances patrols and hot drops doing ferry runs.

As you can see your logistical pilot, having limited income and resources, would eventually cave one way or another. Thus forcing an alliance to do and pay what I desire anyway.

The key here is Industrialist think and play eve like chess, thinking several moves ahead of you and your alliance and planing for alternate outcomes of events and situations. Whereas most pvp pilots and Alliance leaders think days and weeks ahead and on occasion a month or 2, Industrialist think months and years ahead, and have multiple redundancies to their plans and setups. we think about the bigger picture, and how to control the fate of all involved.


2. On Attrition of wills. You may want to ask yourself what causes this, because in the end the answer is always individual wealth. An Alliance generally does not pay for 100% of the members incomes and Ships and fittings. At some point in time the member has to fend for themselves in this regard. And it is the members unwillingness to continue to lose ISK and fork over ship after ship in losses, that causes the loss of will, as you put it.

An industrialist that is good at his job can usually (but not always) extend this life and desire by simply supplying the Alliance with inexpensive materials, and ships and ammo.

2b. On the other hand for smaller alliances the Industrialist can make it exceedingly expensive for an enemy alliance larger or not to take their space. While yes you are correct the smaller alliance will be overwhelmed and ran out. They will generally have become rich during the process and simply move to a better area, as the enemy was most likely buying from the smaller alliances market and paying the exorbitant prices in their region to replace their lost ships. meaning that while yes the smaller Alliance lost their current space, they became wealthy doing it.

War can make even the poorest popper wealthy, and even the smallest entity a giant, with proper economic manipulation. Who cares about space ownership? If your alliance becomes rich beyond its dreams while losing space, do you really care about some rinky dink system? Not to mention with the prices your enemy is paying in your region, they are weakening themselves financially. So as they become weaker, you become stronger. And A strong financial backing is the first key to success.

Continued in next post:
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#7 - 2014-04-15 02:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
2c. It's not about buying your market out. it's about forcing you to make inconvenient decisions, at the right moment which in turn causes catastrophic failure for your alliance on multiple fronts. buying your market out is something I would do only once I knew you did not have the resources to replace it. You can have all the ISK in the world, but it does you no good if your logi pilots don't make it up to restock, or if the enemy attacking you is depleting your ships and weapons faster then you can replace them.

Let me give you an example:

An enemy fleet is attacking your home system, they already have their sov blockers up and you are fighting to stop them, but for whatever reason the battle is going badly and you;ve lost a lot of ships. Your not particularly worried because you know your home station has everything you need to continue and win the fight on the market, and youve made sure of it.

But.... suddenly you notice when your pilots start coming out in crappy ships something is wrong.. You check the market only to realize too late that every single worthwhile ship needed to continue the fight is gone. You immediately tell your entire fleet to come to the station so you can hand out the back up ships you have stored in your corporate hangers, but this extra time has allowed the enemy to blockade your Sov.

You manage to push them out, but just barely and you take heavy losses doing it.


* The next day they are back, this time they strike during your downtime, but your secure in the knowledge that you reseeded your market, and replaced the losses from the day before. However once again you look at the market and everything you just did is gone, This time due to the lack of resources, your alliance fails to mobilize and the system is lost.

You see, I know exactly what I am doing. And in this example, I just killed your alliances home system. I don;t care if you made billions from it. Your alliance is crippled, and your enemy just bought from me, everything I bought from you. They are now well supplied, in shiny new ships fully weaponized, while your alliance in deep 0.0 is struggling to mobilize and retain any type of force as your supplies are gone, and you have few if any surviving ships.

You see you can have trillions of isk, and tons of pilots, but all things are based on time, and if you do not have the right resources at the right time, you die. And trillions of ISK and tons of pilots do you no good if those pilots do not have ships with which to fight. And your ISK is useless if you do not have a market in range with which to buy from.....


As I said, the true Industrialist is the real Terror of Eve, or the Savior. In this example I could have just as easily saved your Alliance, as crippled it. And nothing you can do can stop an industrialist from doing either, should they so chose. Everyone is at the mercy of the economy save those who control it. The real trick is to know how to use your enemies strength and turn it into a weapon against them. Yours is your self sufficiency. Your weakness is your belief that it can't be touched. I just took your strength and made it your enemies. And took your weakness and exploited it.

The end result was the loss of your home system. And while yes there are many things you could have done to counter such, as I said before it's all about timing, and what actions are taken in response to such.


3. 20 billion average is not a bad number honestly, there's quite a bit you can do with that. Assets are what you really want though rather then liquid currency.

* Assets are for supply and defense and you should only ever have 25% of your assets on the market when playing this "war" game. The rest you should hold in reserve. But even that is not a guarantee of success, it just means you might last longer, which that in itself might guarantee you success. Just remember things not sold on the market to "your" alliance count as a loss, not a gain, even if sold. As those are resources a possible enemy now holds and can use against you.

* Currency is for Attack
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#8 - 2014-04-15 10:09:16 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:


Let me give you an example:

An enemy fleet is attacking your home system, they already have their sov blockers up and you are fighting to stop them, but for whatever reason the battle is going badly and you;ve lost a lot of ships. Your not particularly worried because you know your home station has everything you need to continue and win the fight on the market, and youve made sure of it.

But.... suddenly you notice when your pilots start coming out in crappy ships something is wrong.. You check the market only to realize too late that every single worthwhile ship needed to continue the fight is gone. You immediately tell your entire fleet to come to the station so you can hand out the back up ships you have stored in your corporate hangers, but this extra time has allowed the enemy to blockade your Sov.



Or, you have your logi bro's sell fitted ships via alliance/corp only contracts, thus ensuring no market fuckwittery.


Lilly Naari wrote:



You see, I know exactly what I am doing.



This thread says otherwise.


"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#9 - 2014-04-15 11:29:34 UTC


Quote:


Or, you have your logi bro's sell fitted ships via alliance/corp only contracts, thus ensuring no market fuckwittery.




That would only work for a small Alliance based in a very small area. Due to limitation of # of Alliance Contracts Allowed. The market is 10's of 1000's of orders across an entire region. And there are ways in which I could deal with that as well.

So no, there would still be market fuckwittery as you put it, and an "Alliance" industrialist is still necessary to combat such effectively.

Quote:


This thread says otherwise.





Prove it. Lol

The point is, is that Every Alliance needs at least one industrialist (And possibly their crew if they have one), preferably more then one, the issue your going to find is as I said, one that actually wants to join you.
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#10 - 2014-04-15 13:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mythrandier
Lilly Naari wrote:



That would only work for a small Alliance based in a very small area. Due to limitation of # of Alliance Contracts Allowed. The market is 10's of 1000's of orders across an entire region. And there are ways in which I could deal with that as well.

So no, there would still be market fuckwittery as you put it, and an "Alliance" industrialist is still necessary to combat such effectively.




My expereince in 0.0 says otherwise. With JF's runs (usually done in corp) and Alliance level contracts I have very, very rarely used the market.


Lilly Naari wrote:


Prove it. Lol



Burden of proof. You are making the claim that you know what you are doing, I disagree. Its up to you to prove it, not me.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#11 - 2014-04-15 14:56:32 UTC
Mythrandier wrote:



My expereince in 0.0 says otherwise. With JF's runs (usually done in corp) and Alliance level contracts I have very, very rarely used the market.


Fair enough, I can't argue with your personal experiences other then to point out this is just you on a small scale with your corp mainly (At least I gather from your statement). And again like I said depending on your alliance it may work just fine, this method is excellent for smaller alliances, doesn't work so well with larger ones though, unfortunately.


Quote:


Burden of proof. You are making the claim that you know what you are doing, I disagree. Its up to you to prove it, not me.

[/quote]

Well, honestly that could go both ways, I am not actually making any claims here, save that I from my own experiences know what I am talking about, the individual I originally quoted said Null Alliances were looking for industrialists. I was originally simply pointing out why we were so hard to find and recruit.

Being an Industrialist myself, (Though honestly I left 0.0 behind a while back), I know from experience why I choose not to join or help any of the Null bear alliances, and that's basically what I stated from my experiences and perspective.

In the end everyone has their own experiences to rely on, and each individuals perception of the cause of something, is probably different.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2014-04-15 15:03:05 UTC
Lilly Naari wrote:

1. A logistics player can yes, and the industrialist can simply buy them and stockpile forcing the price up repeatedly until the logistics player can't cope with it.



Your ignorance is overwhelming here!

The JF pilot that stocks the market gets paid when you buy out their items. You do it regularly, the simply increase the costs to make it worth their time. You also cannot touch corp contracts, which adequately supply many moderately sized corps.

And if we are referring to Sov nullsec, where you cannot dock in the enemy station, what are you going to do with your billions and billions in stockpiled goods you cannot access other than remote sell / contracts? You will run out of isk far more quickly than that JF runs out of energy, especially since you are PAYING him every time you buy out the market. To top it off, players can simply ask on coms, does anyone have xyz in their hangar, and have it sold to them via station trading (which is also something I often do).


Lilly Naari wrote:

If I'm feeling frisky, I would just make everything dirt cheap, It would be a loss to me in the short run, but in the long run he would have to match my prices at the lower rate or fail to make money at which point I would continually buy his now cheap stuff and list it higher. then when the time was right, strip the market and force your alliance to pay top dollar or risk loosing your JF's to the invading alliances patrols and hot drops doing ferry runs.

As you can see your logistical pilot, having limited income and resources, would eventually cave one way or another. Thus forcing an alliance to do and pay what I desire anyway.

The key here is Industrialist think and play eve like chess, thinking several moves ahead of you and your alliance and planing for alternate outcomes of events and situations. Whereas most pvp pilots and Alliance leaders think days and weeks ahead and on occasion a month or 2, Industrialist think months and years ahead, and have multiple redundancies to their plans and setups. we think about the bigger picture, and how to control the fate of all involved.


Now your just trolling. You cannot compete with someone if you cannot get your goods into their station. Do you know what the staging system of your enemy is a year in advance, before they conquer it, while it is accessible? I think not. With your self-entitled, I'm-so-important-to-the-game mentality, protect-me-so-I-can-mine-in-peace mentality, do you really wonder why you get ridiculed?


Lilly Naari wrote:

2. On Attrition of wills. You may want to ask yourself what causes this, because in the end the answer is always individual wealth. An Alliance generally does not pay for 100% of the members incomes and Ships and fittings. At some point in time the member has to fend for themselves in this regard. And it is the members unwillingness to continue to lose ISK and fork over ship after ship in losses, that causes the loss of will, as you put it.

An industrialist that is good at his job can usually (but not always) extend this life and desire by simply supplying the Alliance with inexpensive materials, and ships and ammo.


In then end, it is not "individual wealth" that causes the attrition of wills. FYI: Most people in this game aren't terrible concerned with wealth. People want enough for fun toys to use and lose, but that doesn't require enormous wealth as making isk in this game is trivial. Attrition of wills happens through cockblocking, structure bashing, and being on the wrong side of a slaughter.

Lilly Naari wrote:

2b. On the other hand for smaller alliances the Industrialist can make it exceedingly expensive for an enemy alliance larger or not to take their space. While yes you are correct the smaller alliance will be overwhelmed and ran out. They will generally have become rich during the process and simply move to a better area, as the enemy was most likely buying from the smaller alliances market and paying the exorbitant prices in their region to replace their lost ships. meaning that while yes the smaller Alliance lost their current space, they became wealthy doing it.

War can make even the poorest popper wealthy, and even the smallest entity a giant, with proper economic manipulation. Who cares about space ownership? If your alliance becomes rich beyond its dreams while losing space, do you really care about some rinky dink system? Not to mention with the prices your enemy is paying in your region, they are weakening themselves financially. So as they become weaker, you become stronger. And A strong financial backing is the first key to success.

Continued in next post:



Why would the conquering alliance by overpriced goods? They can bring in their own materials at at a decent price. And anything left behind is stuck where you can only remotely access it. The conquered alliance usually takes a LOSS when they lose their space, not profits. Have you ever been to nullsec or partaken in Sov warfare?
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#13 - 2014-04-15 15:22:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Have you ever been to nullsec or partaken in Sov warfare?



I assume that was rhetorical, we all can make an educated guess based on the contents of this very thread.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#14 - 2014-04-15 16:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Your ignorance is overwhelming here!

The JF pilot that stocks the market gets paid when you buy out their items. You do it regularly, the simply increase the costs to make it worth their time. You also cannot touch corp contracts, which adequately supply many moderately sized corps.

And if we are referring to Sov nullsec, where you cannot dock in the enemy station, what are you going to do with your billions and billions in stockpiled goods you cannot access other than remote sell / contracts? You will run out of isk far more quickly than that JF runs out of energy, especially since you are PAYING him every time you buy out the market. To top it off, players can simply ask on coms, does anyone have xyz in their hangar, and have it sold to them via station trading (which is also something I often do).


1.) Actually on number I miss typed heit wasn't supposed to say that I simply forgot to edit it. My point with that is you can make his trips worthless, by placing your own items of the same type on the market lower in price then his, ensuring that his do not sell, and yours do. Thus he loses money, in addition you can also hike up the price of Jump fuel in his home departure region making his jumps more expensive and his profits less. Sure he can spend another couple of hours running 40 jumps to jita for fuel, but time is money and that's a waste of time I'll make good use of.

Quote:


Now your just trolling. You cannot compete with someone if you cannot get your goods into their station. Do you know what the staging system of your enemy is a year in advance, before they conquer it, while it is accessible? I think not. With your self-entitled, I'm-so-important-to-the-game mentality, protect-me-so-I-can-mine-in-peace mentality, do you really wonder why you get ridiculed?


* I know when an enemy is encroaching on space yes, and I can make assumptions based on their movements, or if need be I can pay someone for information on their plans, well ahead of when they are actually going to happen and be ready for it. So yes. I can. Everyone has their price.

* You miss the point, When I can build everything in the game my goods are always at the station. In addition I can use services like Redfrog for example, to get me whatever I desire there. I never even have to undock. And the frog services are generally always blue with the vast majority of Nullsec alliances. I simply take advantage of your own transport services and use them against you. If need be I'll stick an Alt account in your alliance and use your own logi pilot to bring me my stuff.

* I don't mine. You seem to have missed that part. Most industrialists simply buy the minerals off market at cheaper prices then their intrinsic values.

Quote:


In then end, it is not "individual wealth" that causes the attrition of wills. FYI: Most people in this game aren't terrible concerned with wealth. People want enough for fun toys to use and lose, but that doesn't require enormous wealth as making isk in this game is trivial. Attrition of wills happens through cockblocking, structure bashing, and being on the wrong side of a slaughter.



Non of those things would matter if an individual simply had the time and resources to replace them though. So yes it is a matter of personal wealth. Granted being overwhelmed is discouraging and seeing your **** constantly blown up is also. But then again, if you had the resources pilots and ships to form a proper defense, your **** wouldn't be getting blown up now would it?

Quote:


Why would the conquering alliance by overpriced goods? They can bring in their own materials at at a decent price. And anything left behind is stuck where you can only remotely access it. The conquered alliance usually takes a LOSS when they lose their space, not profits. Have you ever been to nullsec or partaken in Sov warfare?


[/quote]

Who said "they" were over priced? I didn't I simply stated that they bought from me what I bought from you. Maybe I raised the price a tad say 5% to make me a little profit, that's not over priced though.

If you mean a smaller alliance being overwhelmed selling them that at those prices, well the answer is simple. People buy for convenience. It's a lot easier to pay that extra 10 mil for a BC now, then to wait a day or so to bring one up from highsec or your home system. people are lazy, and people with money are willing to pay for what they want, when they want it, at whatever price it's available at. That's just basic consumer marketing.

* Yes I was in Razor during the Bob Tri Wars. And remained in that Coalition (Though I joined Morsis Mihi and Later Hydra afterwords). So yes, I lived in 0.0 for over 5 years, Never even came to highsec. And I lived in a C4 for 2 years after they were released. And only left it twice, maybe 3 times during those 2 years (I love wormholes, not sure why "Shrugs"). I only recently moved to highsec within the last 2-3 years, and mainly because I got bored with null and the Politics. So you could say I guess, that I retired to Highsec.

I remember when POS's controlled SoV. And when you had to meticulously destroy the enemies and Anchor your own and maintain them, and protect them to maintain your hold on space.

Do you?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#15 - 2014-04-15 16:17:12 UTC

Redfrog only delivers to highsec.
Blackfrog is not blue to the majority of Nullsec (The found of blackfrog is in my corp).

And I'd like to point out, that you just implied you'd NEED LOGISTICS PILOTS to move your stuff to the frontlines. That is why nullsec generally needs logistics pilots, while industrialists are simply "nice to have".

Furthermore, the S.O.P. for Sov Nullsec is to deny docking rights to neutrals and hostiles. This makes it very hard to move goods into a station, making it very hard for your to produce **** in an "enemy" station. And finally, the station owners can block your access to the Science and Industry services within a station, which further gimps what you can do to compete wtih the locals, even if you do have the supplies in station to build your stuff.

Your hole argument is so full of holes it makes swiss cheese look solid.

Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#16 - 2014-04-15 16:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Redfrog only delivers to highsec.
Blackfrog is not blue to the majority of Nullsec (The found of blackfrog is in my corp).

And I'd like to point out, that you just implied you'd NEED LOGISTICS PILOTS to move your stuff to the frontlines. That is why nullsec generally needs logistics pilots, while industrialists are simply "nice to have".

Furthermore, the S.O.P. for Sov Nullsec is to deny docking rights to neutrals and hostiles. This makes it very hard to move goods into a station, making it very hard for your to produce **** in an "enemy" station. And finally, the station owners can block your access to the Science and Industry services within a station, which further gimps what you can do to compete wtih the locals, even if you do have the supplies in station to build your stuff.

Your hole argument is so full of holes it makes swiss cheese look solid.



lol, You might be surprised at how many alliances do not restrict services, thinking restricting docking rights is sufficient.

* You seem to miss the part where I clearly stated:

"If need be I'll simply put an Alt account in your alliance". I have not been unknown in the past to train an alt up on a clean account for 6 months before joining my Target Alliance. So yea. You will never know its me. Hell I'll even join fleets and pvp with you all and be a "good" supportive member. On that character anyway....

With that, I'll have full access to everything any for your alliance members do, including and not limited to, Docking rights, Factory, refinery, etc. As an added bonus, I'll know all of your pos location, Your shield PW's, your convoy routs, and much much more. You think for a second I wouldn't use those against you to further the needs of my actual Alliance (which is probably the one attacking you in that example I gave you).? And when it is all said and done you will never know it was me. For throughout the entire thing I will remain supportive on that character, and will eventually leave in good standings. Even though it was that character that allowed your enemy to destroy you.

Welcome to Eve Online.

Also I can place buy orders on the market, and purchase items from the market, whether you have restricted services or not. I do it all the time.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2014-04-15 16:50:07 UTC

So now, to be effective as an Industrial superstar:

♦ You need knowledge of your enemies movements prior to them setting up their staging systems.
♦ You need alts in your enemy alliances, so you can smuggle resources in.
♦ You need logistics to make your industrial superstar plays possible.
♦ You need massive resources to buy out your enemy's market.
♦ You need sentries to protect your mining ships
....
And for this, you provide cheap/free ships, eliminate the needs of logistics (oh wait, maybe not), and undermine their enemies by market manipulation. All we need is an attitude change to appreciate your superhero abilities.

Sorry if we don't jump on the loony bus with you. Your response has been noted, now we'll let the thread die.

Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#18 - 2014-04-15 17:17:29 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

So now, to be effective as an Industrial superstar:

♦ You need knowledge of your enemies movements prior to them setting up their staging systems.
♦ You need alts in your enemy alliances, so you can smuggle resources in.
♦ You need logistics to make your industrial superstar plays possible.
♦ You need massive resources to buy out your enemy's market.
♦ You need sentries to protect your mining ships
....
And for this, you provide cheap/free ships, eliminate the needs of logistics (oh wait, maybe not), and undermine their enemies by market manipulation. All we need is an attitude change to appreciate your superhero abilities.

Sorry if we don't jump on the loony bus with you. Your response has been noted, now we'll let the thread die.



Um.. No.

All you need is the ability to supply your Alliance with needed goods and manage their market / protect it from other enemy Industrialists / marketers, and provide inexpensive affordable ships and goods on it.

The rest of that stuff was just RP, and which if you can do in certain circumstances, great. Most people can't, and admittedly I delved a bit into the BO area of Eve as I have a lot of experience with that as well.

On the needs, Yes you have needs, do you need someone else to do them for you? Not really. You can buy and sell on the market whether you have access to station services or not. You can always place buy orders and work with that from scratch. But if your enterprising you'll find a way to make an area work for you, and whatever alliance happens to be in said area.

If your in an Alliance great. If not, Great, doesn't really matter.

The whole point here was simply to point out that there is a reason Alliances have a difficult time finding Industrialists who are willing to help them. I simply pointed out the reasons why they do not wish to join you all. If you want to change that then change it if not, stop whining about how you can't recruit them.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-04-29 15:49:57 UTC
Quote:
ignore Industrialists: In an alliance or corporation, industrialists are completely irrelevant and should never be allowed a voice in anything. Sound extreme? It isn’t. An industrialist is not a logistician, but a ‘producer’. Producers live in hisec in countless numbers, and anything that is built there can simply be imported from Jita with a jump freighter - by a logistician. Logisticians matter in alliances; so do financiers, diplomats, and most of all warriors. Producers do not. There has never been a war in the history of EVE which was won by an advantage in local production; the hobbits of ASCN believed their own propaganda and assured each other that production mattered, but they were crushed utterly by Band of Brothers. Take after the words of House Greyjoy: ‘We Do Not Sow’. Be particularly wary of capital/supercapital producers, who are often wealthy and consider themselves to be above alliance rules. Alliances have no need of ‘industrial wings’, ‘industrial directors’ - none of it.


The above is a quote from The Mittani you might find helpful.
I live in npc nullsec and our logi bros do a great job of importing doctrine ships as well as our personal ships.
We have alliance rules about mark up over Jita (fuel costs included).
We seed the local market with very little as our foes could buy it at any time.
I like many of my fellows have an industry alt.
Some of my friends mine to make isk.
If they asked for people to guard them doing it they would be laughed at.
If they didn't PVP with us they would be kicked (1-2 exceptions for some very important jobs).

Only PVPers are useful to us. Everyone in eve has a method of making isk and so we all have alts that perform useful support functions.
Pure industrialists /marketeers can do what they want but they are not welcome in our space without permission.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-05-07 00:24:42 UTC
One problem with this discussion is that we are are confusing sov null with npc null, which both work on different premises.

Relisting in deklein is a bannable offense. And most market pvp can get you banned if you are caught. This is very different from stations in npc null that can't be controlled. On long deployments the richer cfc members are expected to move their own subcaps in carriers. For everyone else, there is goonswarm offensive logistics. We don't really *need* producers.

Clever market players may have some impact on npc null, but they will never be able to do any meaningful damage to a well organized sov alliance. Even if you have spies, you can only use them so often before they are caught.

Production and mining are nonetheless fun things to do, maybe on the side, in between fleets as a substitute for ratting. Or while your main is on a mind numbing hell camp and you're able multitask. But it doesn't have to be done.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
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