Assembly Hall

There are many smart players in eve, probably more than dumb ones, however you hardly ever hear of them. This practice results in a lot of unused space. Although I hate to admit it Pro God Legend made this statement I agree with. Full commnets can be found in the CSM released minutes
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM8WinterMinutes2014.pdf

"PGL listed some drawbacks of newer, more lucrative content (incursions, WHs). He then
pointed out that in 0.0, no one ever really uses their space. He said if there was a scaling set of options for income, scaling with risk vs reward, use of space might be more worthwhile.
Roaming is a waste at the moment because there is little reason to undock to fight. If there was
a very valuable but risky activity this might prompt people to actually fight against roamers for it."

Intel is a large part of this weather it be residents or roamers. I ... well I know people who have put cloaked pilots in a known active area for a few days just to see who is there and then let the gang know when a good time to catch peeps unawares. on the same token defenders often pick sentries cloaked a few jumps out, warning comes and pilots dock up. its standard practice and frustrates both sides.

While not related directly to this topic I think the further discussion in the CSM would bring larger notice to the problem

"SoniClover pointed out that some 0.0 areas are much safer than others due to the people that
live there. Malcanis suggested that the availability of the risky areas should be tied to ship
losses. Ripard pointed out that the pirates don’t go to the actual dangerous systems. He said
that null-sec entry systems like EC-P8R should be a -1 system because the traffic flow is really
high, and that an actual safe system in the middle of nowhere should be -0.1. "Pirates go where
there are ships to shoot," he added."

Thoughts?

what about a new prob to combat and core that can locate cloakers but takes abit of time to do that way cloaker can see if he is been probed and the others cn find him win win for both?

In my mind it would be to passively target and scan ships while cloaked, the targeting is lost when switching there would also be a long targeting delay , say double the normal uncloaked targeting time. -
in this case if a hi sec freighter pilot would not have to worry anymore about cloaked over non cloaked scanning ships.
Passive target and scan is already a part of the game.
I still insist that we have a better action based local intel system over the passive Local chat system.
I am in favor of the delayed local, however this should come with more tools.
enhanced tools should require at least a little bit of specialization.
The idea behind it should to be pilots to work together in small groups instead of solo. At the same time is should discourage use by 500+ groups. Say the more pilots in system active in space would give many returns making it progressively more difficult to identify and gather intel about specific pilots.

(disclaimer on the following example. this is general knowledge and not classified as far as I know)
Navy vessels from all countries have two methods of detecting ships, planes, and items. active and passive often these are used together.
Active gives a ping of range and location but is harder to identify more that general size and direction.
Passive you can gather more intel about what's there by what sounds it makes and check against known database for ship type, abilities and even down to who is captain and what they had to eat before they left port. however beyond direction it is close to impossible for one ships to detect range, speed and direction.
Working in a group it is possible to work out who the target is, their range, speed ect. however get to many ships in the area creates Noise reducing this significantly.

exactly. so what if this tech for hunting cloaked ships, is to much for a prob to handle and now you need several ships fitted with a deep scan listening module, all have to be fleeted and one pilot has a second module that relays information from the other ships. correlates the data and give a broadcastable target location +- 100 km from where actual target may or may not be depending on skill.

is just a thought but this could be set up similar to or connected with Dscan mechanics for the one while the second works in the probe window or similar. information could vary on skill of the pilots incorporated with 5 being the max effective number while more would "corrupt" the data if active. The information relayed could vary from not only location but ship type and pilot.

The overlying principles suggest this could work, if we refer to real life examples for context on how the systems would behave.

In the game, probes for scanning give every bit as much intel, but do so as a snapshot, and return only the items that they retained after filtering out garbage.
(Ok, it's a game, and the filtering is really done by never having the garbage present to begin with, same result)
Whether they do an active ping, or simply use enhanced detection over a limited time frame, either could be used here.

We have four different racial sensor types, each operating on a slightly different wavelength, if not entirely unique and pigeon holed by this.
Amarr, using RADAR. (If this is actual radio waves, then it has to be some version beyond our awareness, as radio waves don't travel fast enough to give meaningful data beyond a certain point)
Caldari, using Gravimetric. (Measuring this is something we have little to compare with, as we have no real world sensors outside of laboratories relating to this)
Gallente, magnetometric. (It's a big metal detector equivalent. Just refined to the point of usefulness here)
Minmatar, LADAR. (Laser detection and ranging system, oh yeah, it uses lazors. Also sounds like the systems in use by a popular science fiction show, so might be more like that unspecified version)

Long story short, none of these has real world equivalents with function, so the game versions are whatever the devs say, and they say they are equal to each other.
By obvious follow through, cloaking technology beats them all, or else cloaking would be less effective against one or more.

By virtue of concealment and it's needs, cloaking therefore either masks it's presence under a larger signal, which is ignored, or it reduces it's own signal beneath the detection threshold.
Possibly some clever combination of the two.

In any case, using real world analogies can stimulate the imagination, but they are only relevant if the devs decide they are.

lets face it its hard to make all parties happy what this threahd for is afk cloakers not general cloakers therefore this does kill then afk effect of cloaking since they are warned but if choose to ignore thats there fault

same aspect of jumping through a gate if you don't scout well thats your fault if they scout and find hostiles then thats there smarts

no one will be happy but eliminating the effects used by these is one way and yea we could add a delay if others complain "why carnt we have notification been scanned down in a mission" use the "cloak has a inbuilt detecting device that alerts the ships sensors to scan down and traingulate what that object is giving 60% sensor strengh instead of about 15% or less of ships power

I think that your suggestions for "fixing" cloaking tilt things far, far too much against active cloakers. There are times when I *will* spend an hour or more sitting in one place watching a POS or taking note of someone's activity while I try to dig up a fleet.

I would like to point out, however, that a pilot who is AFK in a station or a POS provides the exact same level of threat as someone who is AFK in a cloakie. They can provide intel on who is in the system, can undock and drop a cyno, etc. etc.

So why are you not suggesting that people AFK in a station or an alt get autologged out? Or periodically ejected, or give people a way to eject pilots from a station or POS to make sure they are not AFK? :)

Exactly my points, thank you for seeing it the way this thread is intended.

One of the most ignored aspects of local, yet highly used, is not so much the fact that it tells you who is present in the system.

It is that, by reporting them so quickly, it also tells players WHEN to react, as well as IF they should react.

This is effectively prompting players when to take an action, and by doing this helps to create the too often seen stalemates.

I have found many players, who would claim that their fellows are incapable of activating a toggled sensor, or simply pinging as needed. They claim these players who are unable to make an effort to get their own intel would be mass killed by a rampaging horde of cloaked ships.

And, surprisingly to some, they also claim that the cloaked players will know exactly where to find these PvE targets, and be able to move in on them as described above.

I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation as to how one group will have more intel without local, which would now include pilot presence, location, etc.... while another group known to have exclusive intel channels would somehow have less intel.

Oh, and of course, players would not adapt to this, ever, and the game would die a horrible empty doom.

Sorry, but I find your premise unacceptable.

This is a game, and the devs are the final decision makers regarding what is an exploit, and what is not.
As this is an arbitrary decision on their part, and they have final judgement, any definition which seems to contradict this must be therefore invalid.

Please respect the nature of the game as intact, and suggest changes from this foundation.
We get nowhere assuming the devs cannot be trusted at least this far.