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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2014-04-14 15:34:03 UTC
I would also like to see symmetrical turrets on the Machariel, but that's a minor concern.

As I mentioned in the cruiser thread, I would prefer to see a slightly large drone bay, and small bonuses to other drones on the Guristas line. I do not want to see these ships become too narrowly focused.
Usagi Lunar
Triton Industries.
#162 - 2014-04-14 15:35:08 UTC
With 10% to drones and 10% to energy neut/vamp it fits the launchers but not the bill.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#163 - 2014-04-14 15:35:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
The rattle is well overbonused compared to the gila and worm.... no consistency at all .. unjustifiable really

Shocked?! I hope that's a joke.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#164 - 2014-04-14 15:35:48 UTC
Usagi Lunar wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Super sentries. Told you, Arthur. Big smile


This will at least shut up the people who were ready to scream bloody murder if The 'Snake only got bonuses to heavies lol.



Meh, the snake still sucks. (Keep in mind I'm referring to PVE only) I stopped using them after the omni nerf and they've done nothing to the platform to make me want to pick them back up. Even with the drone "changes". I'll gladly sell the 4-5 I have at a healthy profit though. At least the other pirate ships are *BETTER* at a their roles/niches than most other ships that could fill them. There really is nothing it does that another ship doesn't do better. I feel like the devs haven't really looked at the graphic of how ships were supposed to be that was shown at fanfest last year.

Anyway, my point is I don't see these changing the pirate BS meta in any significant way. People that flew, Vindis, Machs and Nightmares are still going to fly them now, and people that didn't fly the RS are still not going to fly them now... so I guess the devs win this round?


Ishtar is the new Gila
Dominix is the new Rattlesnake


While I maxed out hybrid skills years ago missiles were just more fun. Thats why I speced into the Gila and Rattle. Drones + Missiles, now nothing fits this formula really.

navy phoon ?
Mr Ignitious
Lifeline Industries
#165 - 2014-04-14 15:36:02 UTC
Lets be real for a sec. The Nightmare is getting explicitly buffed, that's fine, it wasn't particularly special before, and now it might be.
Bhaalgorn getting buffed as well, pretty substantially too. This is fine, maybe it will finally get used for something other than capital fights.
Vindicator. An agility buff? Alright, sweet. I don't know why but I'll take it.
Machariel I am sad about. The agility nerf is going to really alter it's feel, make it much easier to catch. Warpspeed is cool, but I bought ascendancies to take care of that. I'd rather have in combat prowess than a logistical update. I think this helps high sec mission/incursion runners but wrecks it for pvp.

Finally the rattlesnake.... it sucks. Heavy and sentry bonus exclusively, so it's pigeonholed into 2 options. Also, with a mbit of 50 and a bay of 175 it can carry 3.5 waves? seriously? just give it 200... Or give it a universal bonus. I mean a bonus to just heavy+sentry damage is already the WORST bonus it could get. Heavies are too slow (even with proposed changes to heavy dronse) and sentries are made by the opti/tracking bonus a la dominix/ishtar. The current rattlesnake is vastly preferable to the on you've proposed. Either give it a general drone damage bonus (tragic these days really) or give it the bonuses necessary to make heavies/sentries competitive - heavy+sentry tracking, and heavy drone velocity (I am omitting sentry optimal deliberately here)
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2014-04-14 15:38:03 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
MACHARIEL


nice nerfs there bro


too allow them too focus it on its strengths and add new ones...

- stronger projectile damage and projection - so they are actual masters of projectiles
- drone nerf.. well who kites with heavies anyway?
- sig reduction and mwd sig pen reduction allows you too take less damage...
- armour nerf - well they are supposed too be shield tanked anyway and the extra mid allows for stronger tank here


That's just silly. The Mach runs a shield fit for most purposes just fine with 5 mids. My high sec missioning Mach can do most level 4's without ever needing to use the shield booster, as it is. (And it's T2 Omni-tanked, no bling.) And, if I remember correctly, they are actually supposed to be like the Minmatar, using shield or armor at need.
Alim Omaristos
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2014-04-14 15:38:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Alim Omaristos wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
AleAlejandro wrote:
Straight up buff to the NM <3


Shield incursion runners are dancing in the streets.
Armour incursion runners are now looking at dumping any laser boat but the Nightmare.
But what about it's impact on null sec... where is all your Grr everything except Highsec drivel. What is going on in this world.

I'm scared!


Well, I have to say, these changes do improve the shield incursion groups, and most likely the armour incursion groups.
Yes, these changes (except for the Rattlesnake) improve performance pretty much across the board for ALL potential uses of the ship classes.

So yeah, high sec was thrown a bone with this one, after god knows how many nerfs.
But we have yet to see if incursions take a nerf overall, yet.

And yeah, null sec STILL makes out nicely with this, because the vast majority of the BPC's for these ships come from null sec, so a nice buff in income for null.

We still won't see PvP fleets of pirate BS's (outside of maybe the Bhaal killing capital ship capacitors), solely based on the costs of the hulls.

I like you when you dont' talk crazy <3
Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2014-04-14 15:38:26 UTC
Very glad the Rattlesnake keeps it bonus to sentry drones. I assume it had to keep it, as there is just no real alternative in drone boat choices. The dominix and armageddon can not really compete DPS wise or tank wise. So if you are a "drone as main weapon" pilot, the Rattlesnake was the only viable choice.

If they take away the sentries from a Rattlesnake, they would have to add a new drone boat in, as otherwise there would be nothing to fly for the drone pilots.


Also to all who are crying "overpowered", the Rattlesnake has no tracking bonus on drones, no range bonus on drones, so those sentries will have trouble hitting.


It is funny, whenever people see sentries.. first cry is "totally overpowered". A thread i opened to state that there is a lack of choices in ships for drone as main weapon pilots got shot down by "overpowered" cries. And saying "you have the Rattlesnake, so shut up".

So i am very glad we get to keep the Rattlesnake at least. I really hope it stays as it is proposed now - even though i would have loved a ship that focuses more on drones, instead of relying on other weapon systems all too much.


I still hope that somewhere down the line, once all ships are rebalanced, and the devs may turn to adding in new ships, that there will be room for new drone boats. I'd really love to see a t2 drone boat battleship, for some more choices for us drone lovers.



If it was for me, i would change the rattle to more drone dmg bonus, more drone tracking, and reduce the launchers to a bare minumum. So it has the same dps as now, but like 90-95% from drones.. instead 50/50 as it is now.

As is stands i also take the buff to the launchers, as long as i get to keep the sentries on them.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2014-04-14 15:38:38 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


We still won't see PvP fleets of pirate BS's (outside of maybe the Bhaal killing capital ship capacitors), solely based on the costs of the hulls.


Odd, just in the last two weeks we have fought a Machariel fleet and a Rattlesnake fleet. And that is just in a week.

They are more common than you think, most groups with suicide triage will escalate to them

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#170 - 2014-04-14 15:38:42 UTC
My predictions for the Guristas ships were correct...

I wonder if my predictions for the AT prizes are correct...

...
Usagi Lunar
Triton Industries.
#171 - 2014-04-14 15:38:45 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Super sentries. Told you, Arthur. Big smile


This will at least shut up the people who were ready to scream bloody murder if The 'Snake only got bonuses to heavies lol.



Meh, the snake still sucks. (Keep in mind I'm referring to PVE only) I stopped using them after the omni nerf and they've done nothing to the platform to make me want to pick them back up. Even with the drone "changes". I'll gladly sell the 4-5 I have at a healthy profit though. At least the other pirate ships are *BETTER* at a their roles/niches than most other ships that could fill them. There really is nothing it does that another ship doesn't do better. I feel like the devs haven't really looked at the graphic of how ships were supposed to be that was shown at fanfest last year.

Anyway, my point is I don't see these changing the pirate BS meta in any significant way. People that flew, Vindis, Machs and Nightmares are still going to fly them now, and people that didn't fly the RS are still not going to fly them now... so I guess the devs win this round?


Ishtar is the new Gila
Dominix is the new Rattlesnake


Then I have to skill into the duct tape ships...
Sieonigh
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2014-04-14 15:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Sieonigh
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
AleAlejandro wrote:
Straight up buff to the NM <3


Shield incursion runners are dancing in the streets.
Armour incursion runners are now looking at dumping any laser boat but the Nightmare.



well i already have the stats into EVE HQ and made up a fit

so these will be the stats at all lvl 5 skills / no implants / no fleet boosts

first the fitting:

[Nightmair Post, incur]

Damage Control II
Ammatar Navy Heat Sink
Ammatar Navy Heat Sink
Ammatar Navy Heat Sink
Ammatar Navy Heat Sink
Domination Tracking Enhancer

Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L
Small Tractor Beam II
Imperial Navy Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

Hobgoblin II x5

the pith A tank it a bit much imo, but this will be the top end specs

DPS: 1 089 (guns 990 / drones 99) some will say this is low but its before implants
gun Tracking: 0.0439
Tank: 162 k EHP (shield HP 18 990 / Res EM:83 TH:82 KI:83 EX:86) over tanked for incursions
Cap: lasts 4 min gleam loaded (assuming no use of tractor beam or cap exfer)
Speed: 867m/s (i know this is the one you all be wanting to know, that 12m/s faster than a MWD fit)
Sig: 417 (it will never git bigger than this with out TPs, although this is a little bigger than norm cause of the 3 shild rig but after boosts any bloom you get will be irrelevant)
Scan res: 137.5 (little higher than it used to be, not much noticable)


after implants and boosts i don't the need for cap exfers will be needed (at lest in terms of buddies) this fit i know is over tanked so rigs could be adjusted for damage upgrades but the 4 HS makes that redundant and the 3 TC + TE make any tracking and range upgrades redundant. i would mention that the amount of CPU and PG remaining is massive (246.5 CPU and 3 641.05 grid) mayby drone rigs to make more effective with all the CPU and a cal navy PDU or DDA instead of the TE.
Leeloo Alizee
Orion Constellation Inc.
#173 - 2014-04-14 15:41:21 UTC
Mr Ignitious wrote:
Lets be real for a sec. The Nightmare is getting explicitly buffed, that's fine, it wasn't particularly special before, and now it might be.
Bhaalgorn getting buffed as well, pretty substantially too. This is fine, maybe it will finally get used for something other than capital fights.
Vindicator. An agility buff? Alright, sweet. I don't know why but I'll take it.
Machariel I am sad about. The agility nerf is going to really alter it's feel, make it much easier to catch. Warpspeed is cool, but I bought ascendancies to take care of that. I'd rather have in combat prowess than a logistical update. I think this helps high sec mission/incursion runners but wrecks it for pvp.

Finally the rattlesnake.... it sucks. Heavy and sentry bonus exclusively, so it's pigeonholed into 2 options. Also, with a mbit of 50 and a bay of 175 it can carry 3.5 waves? seriously? just give it 200... Or give it a universal bonus. I mean a bonus to just heavy+sentry damage is already the WORST bonus it could get. Heavies are too slow (even with proposed changes to heavy dronse) and sentries are made by the opti/tracking bonus a la dominix/ishtar. The current rattlesnake is vastly preferable to the on you've proposed. Either give it a general drone damage bonus (tragic these days really) or give it the bonuses necessary to make heavies/sentries competitive - heavy+sentry tracking, and heavy drone velocity (I am omitting sentry optimal deliberately here)


That Mach "bonuses" are not helping incursioners, Mach will sit on gate alone and wait if he gets in fleet, because for sniping Nightmare is geting way over mach
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#174 - 2014-04-14 15:42:16 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
My predictions for the Guristas ships were correct...

I wonder if my predictions for the AT prizes are correct...


these rattles will be nasty for AT.. kitey sentries with cruises and huge tank.. like we need more sentry boats..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#175 - 2014-04-14 15:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeBee
So running the numbers on the rattle, cant say i agree with the drone bay / heavy / sentry bonus. Its basically been minorly buffed on singular drone EHP while loosing the versatility of a full drone bay. If anything I'm worried that this is a testing ground for future changes to other drone boats and i do not like the direction.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#176 - 2014-04-14 15:43:34 UTC
New Machariel align time with a single Nanofiber:

-ln(0.25)* 94680000 * (.096-15.8%) / 1000000 = 10.6096

Right now it's 9.58

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#177 - 2014-04-14 15:43:39 UTC
Wait, is the Rattlesnake bonused for Rapid Heavy damage, too?

Dat brawl...Shocked

The ship is now strictly better than a Navy Scorpion, by a whole lot. One more low, one less mid, negligibly worse at fitting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#178 - 2014-04-14 15:43:54 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

- stronger projectile damage and projection - so they are actual masters of projectiles
- drone nerf.. well who kites with heavies anyway?
- sig reduction and mwd sig pen reduction allows you too take less damage...
- armour nerf - well they are supposed too be shield tanked anyway and the extra mid allows for stronger tank here


sig does absolutely nothing here, and lol @ shield mach
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#179 - 2014-04-14 15:44:44 UTC
CCP Rise, please reconsider the 'tweaks' to the Machariel.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#180 - 2014-04-14 15:46:24 UTC
Leeloo Alizee wrote:
Mr Ignitious wrote:
Lets be real for a sec. The Nightmare is getting explicitly buffed, that's fine, it wasn't particularly special before, and now it might be.
Bhaalgorn getting buffed as well, pretty substantially too. This is fine, maybe it will finally get used for something other than capital fights.
Vindicator. An agility buff? Alright, sweet. I don't know why but I'll take it.
Machariel I am sad about. The agility nerf is going to really alter it's feel, make it much easier to catch. Warpspeed is cool, but I bought ascendancies to take care of that. I'd rather have in combat prowess than a logistical update. I think this helps high sec mission/incursion runners but wrecks it for pvp.

Finally the rattlesnake.... it sucks. Heavy and sentry bonus exclusively, so it's pigeonholed into 2 options. Also, with a mbit of 50 and a bay of 175 it can carry 3.5 waves? seriously? just give it 200... Or give it a universal bonus. I mean a bonus to just heavy+sentry damage is already the WORST bonus it could get. Heavies are too slow (even with proposed changes to heavy dronse) and sentries are made by the opti/tracking bonus a la dominix/ishtar. The current rattlesnake is vastly preferable to the on you've proposed. Either give it a general drone damage bonus (tragic these days really) or give it the bonuses necessary to make heavies/sentries competitive - heavy+sentry tracking, and heavy drone velocity (I am omitting sentry optimal deliberately here)


That Mach "bonuses" are not helping incursioners, Mach will sit on gate alone and wait if he gets in fleet, because for sniping Nightmare is geting way over mach


Then the mach pilots better get to training Nightmares. Just like I (night mare pilot) was told to train mach a couple years ago lol. No one (especially CCP) ever told anyone that "you will never have to reship".