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Ship loss causing smart-bomb-like explosion

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-02-07 11:21:39 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
Because Nullsec Capital Battles already happen at 10% speed.


... and this happens solely because there are no detriments to piling on, add the suggested idea + friendly fire checks and watch the blob tactics die as skilled players take over.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-02-07 11:26:56 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
No proponent of this idea stopped to think of the balance at all. Either the damage is negligible and has NO FUNCTIONAL REASON TO EXIST or the damage is non-negligible and there is always, always, always going to be a break even point where it becomes a valid tactic to simply throw ships at the enemy for their explosion damage.


so what? if it's a valid tactic all the better, now you have to destroy the enemy ships before they reach within the explosion radius, basically now in fleet fights you have to MOVE

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#43 - 2014-02-07 13:46:57 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
now in fleet fights you have to MOVE


That ^
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#44 - 2014-02-07 14:49:40 UTC
It would be realistic and would surely open new ways for warfare, although it needs some thinking.

Someone said only large structures -POS', etc.- should create damaging explosions when destroyed. I think it would be a good idea; those things are monstrous and full of fuel.
That said, what about capitals? They also are monstrous structures, excepting they're mobile, and they even have ammo stored, warp cores... If structures get this feature, I think caps could do too.
Lesser ships... are more debatable. They also explode when destroyed... Perhaps they should be the last ones to get this feature, in case it's ever implemented.

I'll leave damage amount to more experienced players, but I think I could say something about explosion radius. In any case, it shouldn't be enormous; instead it should be smartbomb-like, perhaps larger. Perhaps, radius should scale up with ship size, so that large POS and titans would have pretty large radius, while carriers would have an smaller one. If subcaps get this feature, explosion radius variation should also be applied to them, ranging from as much as 1 km for a frigate to about 8-10 km for a BS.
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-02-07 15:10:26 UTC
In EVE we must often ask ourselves what is more important, logic or gameplay mechanics. Whilst things exploding causing damage is a bloody no-brainer logic wise, gameplay wise it can open up some interesting exploits (suicide bombing rookie ships anyone?).

As a result I don't know whether to support or unsupport this idea. But it's definitely a great concept.

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#46 - 2014-02-07 17:26:58 UTC
Functionally, pods are the reason this does not happen.

Practically, it's because drone assist if the nullsec FotM.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#47 - 2014-02-07 17:56:06 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
Why isn't there such a thing?

Ships exploding, whether NPC or player, should cause a smart-bomb-like explosion wave. The damage could be of the same type as the highest resist of ships of the same faction, so NPC don't just kill each other in a chain reaction. Also, it should be powerful enough to severely damage (not necessarily kill) a ship that's 2-3 classes lower than itself. The size of the explosion should vary with the ship size, just like small, medium and large smartbombs.

So frigate exploding will do very little damage, even to other frigates. A battleship exploding will do very little damage to nearby battleships and battlecruisers, but enough to cripple a destroyer or frigate.

I know there are problems with this on the face-value, but nothing a good debate can't address:
- What about drones? They will all likely die in the explosion. No idea how to circumvent that.
- What about your own pod? Right now the capsule is ejected, and then the ship blows up. Well, the explosion wave could be sent just before the capsule is ejected
- What about High-sec? Should collateral damage trigger CONCORD response or just be ignored

So why not? I am looking for a debate why this isn't a good idea.

i already mentioned something like this multiple times..

explosion upon death = hull ehp / 2
radius = (mass / volume) / 3

so in theory
all 5 thanatos with a DC 2

469,000ehp / 2 = 234.500 dmg
( 1163250000mass / 13095000volume ) / 3 = 29.6km

Thanatos with level 5 no dc2

188,000ehp / 2 = 94,000dmg
( 1163250000mass / 13095000volume ) / 3 = 29.6km

still playing around with direct dmg or racial spesific, but as you can see there would be drawbacks to being blobs(Yay!)
but if you wanted to you could sacrifice a capital ship build for hull hp and drop it ontop of the other fleet and sacrifice it for the massive aoe dmg.. more caps die.. industry gets a boost from being a root supplier of parts to build em and isk flows more freely around eve.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-02-07 19:46:31 UTC
Have it proportional to the ship size and only happen when its a critical damage strike that destroys the ship
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-04-14 14:08:26 UTC
This is an awesome idea! Was about to post it myself, but found this thread first.

I'll start off by acknowledging it would be very complex to implent and balance. It certainly would have to be a major project for CCP.

But guys, would you prefer CCP to put resources on side-features such as mobile structures or pretty ship skins, or on one big feature that would affect every single engagement of the game, adding a substantial new layer to the gameplay?


Forget the implementation difficulty for a moment, and just think of some of the possibilities:

1) Kamikaze ships become a viable tactic (à la Homeworld Smile). So the fc could choose to use his ships for higher total damage over time, or one big 'alpha' from kamikaze dmg

2) When you know you're doomed in a fleet engagement, you can be the hero and try to take valuable enemy assets with you. How cool is that? Especially if you're flying a cap or supercap.

3) More skill and depth to fleet fits and range tactics. Now if you have enough logi, pounding the enemy fleet at zero is too often the single most effective tactic. This sadly doesn't reward neither the pilots nor the fc's skills - it reduces everything to elementary school dps math... Sad


Some ideas for balancing and avoiding drawbacks:

a) use missile mechanics, so high speed and low sig mitigate damage. you could easily devise the 'dmg curve' in such a way that pods and drones become almost immune; and frigs close to exploding battleships have a chance to survive if they don't sit still...

b) for highsec, further buff mining/hauling ships' tank (since suicide gankers would suddenly get a 'free' dmg buff)

c) regarding crimewatch, if you self-destruct and dmg somebody it's an aggression. if somebody else kills you nothing happens.

d) 'Jita problem' (or any station for that matter) is easily solved: stations have some high tech gizmo that absorbs 'blow-up' dmg, you're safe as long as you're in docking range

e) slightly buff close range weapon systems, to compensate for the fact that sitting at close range now makes you vulnerable to blow-up dmg

f) reduce self-destruct timer to 10-20 seconds


TL;DR: I love the idea because it has the potential to deeply affect combat mechanics and tactics, further emphasizing player skill vs. pure numbers. I think it's worthy of CCP's time to analyze in some depth the obvious implementation/balance difficulties.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#50 - 2014-04-14 16:53:48 UTC
I always like this idea but it's so difficult to get right. Requirements would include:

To prevent hilarious highsec abuse: AOE damage does not occur upon self-destruct or CONCORD kills, to prevent highsec abuses. CONCORD is smart enough to not aim for your reactor, while SD involves a controlled shutdown to minimise debris.

To prevent podding yourself: pod is ejected at high speed in a random direction, explosion is delayed by sufficient time for the blast zone to be cleared. This also lets attentive pilots flee in time too.

Damage needs to be sufficient to encourage fleet formations, yet small enough to not alpha a ship within several size classes. But how many? It's clearly not acceptable for a cruiser blowing up to to alpha a typical frigate. How about three ship sizes, so that the explosion from a capital blowing up could be enough to kill a frigate, say 4k damage over a range of 5 km? Or a supercap going would be enough to cause problems for a cruiser, say 20k damage over 10 km? Damage from small stuff would be feeble.

A frigate or cruiser would take considerable damage or, if lightly tanked, die from those, but it's easy to sit outside the blast zone and avoid it. Plus, the delay between the ship dying and the explosion happening, required for the pod time to clear the area, would also give the ships time to GTFO anyway. You could put some pretty graphical effects in so you wouldn't have to have the target locked to know that it was going to blow.

Lag could be a problem in fleets. But if it cleared enough drones from the field, it might help. What?
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-04-14 17:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pertuabo Enkidgan
Back in the day, ship explosions were massive, bright, beautiful and lit up your screen. If someone in the corner of your eye died you would be notified of it easily. like "oh **** what the **** was that, who died?'' now its barely a poof. Very underwhelming. That's one change that was unnecessary. Yes yes I know space vacuum and all but that wasn't needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4QxW3u-DYuY#t=31 here is one.
NearNihil
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#52 - 2014-04-14 17:36:51 UTC
All I can think of when I read the OP was "why do you hate blasters so?".

Not only is this to a detriment to up-close-and-personal brawler setups, but it actually encourages more kiting ships (not near the enemy? no risk of getting blapped by my kill).

I mean, even if I do kill this battlecruiser solo in my brawling Thorax, it doesn't really matter because his explosion is going to kill me anyway, so why bother? Do you want less explosions to happen?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-04-14 22:52:20 UTC
Pertuabo Enkidgan wrote:
Back in the day, ship explosions were massive, bright, beautiful and lit up your screen. If someone in the corner of your eye died you would be notified of it easily. like "oh **** what the **** was that, who died?'' now its barely a poof. Very underwhelming. That's one change that was unnecessary. Yes yes I know space vacuum and all but that wasn't needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4QxW3u-DYuY#t=31 here is one.
Very satisfying!

What are those weird blue smoke puffs around the ship? Warp animation?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#54 - 2014-04-17 17:48:26 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Pertuabo Enkidgan wrote:
Back in the day, ship explosions were massive, bright, beautiful and lit up your screen. If someone in the corner of your eye died you would be notified of it easily. like "oh **** what the **** was that, who died?'' now its barely a poof. Very underwhelming. That's one change that was unnecessary. Yes yes I know space vacuum and all but that wasn't needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4QxW3u-DYuY#t=31 here is one.
Very satisfying!

What are those weird blue smoke puffs around the ship? Warp animation?


Sensor booster

And I really miss the old player ship explosions
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