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What causes mission rats to change targets now?

Author
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1 - 2014-04-13 15:17:31 UTC
I can be fine and have them all targeted on me, but the second I pop out my Ogre IIs, inevitably, a bunch will go yellow and start targeting the drones instead. So what do they look for to target?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#2 - 2014-04-13 16:09:36 UTC
I can only assume you have been gone for a couple years, Dec 2012 I think? They (CCP) changed mission aggression mechanics, and it has been rough on heavy drones since. If you still want to use drones try sentries, or lights, but since then never send a drone out to 25-60km unless you don't want it back.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#3 - 2014-04-13 16:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Goldiiee wrote:
I can only assume you have been gone for a couple years, Dec 2012 I think? They (CCP) changed mission aggression mechanics, and it has been rough on heavy drones since. If you still want to use drones try sentries, or lights, but since then never send a drone out to 25-60km unless you don't want it back.



Is there a mechanic for it? Is there a way to fit for it or did they just make it random or not tell anyone what it is?

And ya, been gone a few years.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-04-13 16:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
CCP code.

They told everyone that rats will have sleeper or sleeper like mechanic and will switch targets. Go read CCP blogs and patch notes.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#5 - 2014-04-13 17:30:02 UTC
My observation has been that the AI is different in different anomalies/complexes/missions.

In some anomalies, the rats always go for my drones. In others, they go for my light drones, but not my sentries, or vice versa. In others, they ignore my drones all the time.

In some situations, having e-war on your ship (e.g. a target painter) keeps the AI focused on my ship. In others, it makes no difference.

Some will maintain that having e-war on a rat and an active remote repair module will keep the rats 100% focused on you. Others will tell you that makes no difference.

And finally, some will maintain that if you sacrifice a black goat to the powers of darkness on the night of a new moon, then the NPC AI will always ignore your drones, some of the time.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#6 - 2014-04-13 17:34:27 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
My observation has been that the AI is different in different anomalies/complexes/missions.

In some anomalies, the rats always go for my drones. In others, they go for my light drones, but not my sentries, or vice versa. In others, they ignore my drones all the time.

In some situations, having e-war on your ship (e.g. a target painter) keeps the AI focused on my ship. In others, it makes no difference.

Some will maintain that having e-war on a rat and an active remote repair module will keep the rats 100% focused on you. Others will tell you that makes no difference.

And finally, some will maintain that if you sacrifice a black goat to the powers of darkness on the night of a new moon, then the NPC AI will always ignore your drones, some of the time.


It DOES seem completely random, but I was hoping someone had figured it out by now Big smile

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

stoicfaux
#7 - 2014-04-13 19:52:51 UTC
NPCs (at least in missions) like to target their own "size" in drones. Frigates will attack lights, battleships will attack heavies.

But yeah, it does seem kinda random. I wonder...

/runs_off_to_check_something

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#8 - 2014-04-13 20:00:18 UTC
There's no rhyme or reason to target switching, using all sorts of EW like tp, webs and such I still watch my lights get aggro just by being deployed. Ccp tried to do an aggro mechanic with no aggro mechanic tactics. It serves no use other than to annoy you. I've been running without drones since ccps neglate and when I started it meant being in a mission site 12 plus hrs till I've perfected my ship setup.

if your a gun ship do kiting/sniping, for missiles I've found webs better than a target painter especially Against elite rats

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-04-13 20:17:25 UTC
When CCP first changed NPC's to the Sleeper AI, all NPC's were targeting Drones and basically made Player Drone Boats un-usable. After a little while CCP changed the NPC aggro towards Drones to be based more on size. Also it seems that the NPC's will concentrate their fire on one specific drone at a time. I might be wrong and I'm sure there's probably more to it than this but to my understanding this is the basic ratio:

NPC regular Frigates, Destroyers and their Elite class versions will target Light and larger Drones.

NPC Elite class Frigates, Destroyers, regular Cruisers and their Elite class version will target Medium and larger Drones.

NPC Elite class Cruisers, regular Battlecruisers, Battleships and their Elite class version will target Heavy and larger Drones.

I think all NPC ship classes will attack Sentry Drones.

Anyway, in my experience I've found that if I destroy all NPC Frigates, Destroyers and Cruisers first before launching Drones, the larger class NPC's will not aggro on them. However, if there's a spawn or another group within the pocket, all NPC Frigates, Destroyers and Cruisers will aggro on the Drones. When I recall the Drones, the new spawn will switch aggro to my ship. In the case of the other group within the pocket, those NPC's will return to their original location.

If my ship is webbed and scrammed by a close orbiting NPC Frigate and I can't hit it with my autocannons, then the Drones come out and take care of the EWAR NPC's. I keep watch on the Drones and recall each individual Drone when it starts taking Armor damage.


DMC
stoicfaux
#10 - 2014-04-14 01:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=16561&debug=1

AI
Attribute Name Display Name Value
AI_ChanceToNotTargetSwitch Chance to not change targets 0 %
AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius 50 m
AI_ShouldUseEffectMultiplier use effect monitoring 1
AI_ShouldUseSignatureRadius Use Signature Radius 1
AI_ShouldUseTargetSwitching Threat Target Switch 1
AI_TankingModifierDrone Drone Tanking Modifier 0.7


edit: And this for specificity: AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#11 - 2014-04-14 01:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Agondray wrote:
There's no rhyme or reason to target switching, using all sorts of EW like tp, webs and such I still watch my lights get aggro just by being deployed. Ccp tried to do an aggro mechanic with no aggro mechanic tactics. It serves no use other than to annoy you. I've been running without drones since ccps neglate and when I started it meant being in a mission site 12 plus hrs till I've perfected my ship setup.

if your a gun ship do kiting/sniping, for missiles I've found webs better than a target painter especially Against elite rats


Ive been running dual Typhoon fleet issues since I came back, all me damage is in missiles pretty much, but my setup goes over 1k IF I can use my Ogres lol

But Ive got 4.2 million SP that I effectively CANT use because they made them useless with their fuckin new AI. Wish theyd give a refund for stupid **** like that

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2014-04-14 03:18:06 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:



edit: And this for specificity: AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius



This is one of the important iterations they made.

Rat AI was terrible, and it was widely exploited by AFK sentry ratting and AFK heavy drone ratting.

To close that exploit, NPCs were made smart enough to occasionally shoot drones. The same way that players do.

This introduced another exploit - big rats couldn't hit small drones, so the AFKers started exploiting the AI with small drones.



Heavy drones still do battleship weapon damage with tracking that is closer to cruiser weapon tracking than it is to battleship weapons, so the weapons system is still effective. And heavy drones are getting a big buff to MWD movement speed to make up for their current weakness.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#13 - 2014-04-14 07:30:12 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
But Ive got 4.2 million SP that I effectively CANT use because they made them useless with their fuckin new AI. Wish theyd give a refund for stupid **** like that


Of course you can still use them, you just have to watch them now. I dual-(tri/quad)box sleeper sites with sentry Dominixes and believe me when I say level 4 mission rats don't care anywhere near as much about drones as sleepers do.

What you meant to say was that you can't fire-and-forget your drones anymore... which is true.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-04-14 08:59:56 UTC
I think - but I'm not sure - that each rat now has a threat priority list, and a timer for when to check that list. If the timer hits zero, and there's a target higher on the threat list than the one the rat has engaged, the rat will switch targets.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2014-04-14 12:54:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
[Gila, semi afk Sweeper]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Small 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Small 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x7
Hobgoblin II x7

Fit for Guristas.

Aggro on my ogres is rare. The combination of native DPS (from the missile launchers), EWAR (apply damp to structures, , AI don't know the difference) and logistics (I launch a can and shield rep it because Ogres will soon fly out of rep range) generates a level of threat the NPCs have a hard time ignoring.

Some rare aggro switching occurs but I've only like a handful of ogres (less than 5) in the 3 months I used this ship full time. Vexor NI, Ishtar and Domi work fine doing this but aren't as good as Gila/Rattlesnake/Armageddon because of the missiles.

In null sec it's a LOT easier because instead of a damp I use ECM burst. In my experience (and it could just be my imagination), the npcs hate ecm/ecm burst and damps way more than they dislike Webs and TPs.

The npc AI is just easy to game and you can get an idea of it from the stuff Stoic posted.

Edit, oh and orbit the can with AB on to keep from getting squished.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#16 - 2014-04-14 17:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Jenn aSide wrote:
[Gila, semi afk Sweeper]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Small 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Small 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x7
Hobgoblin II x7

Fit for Guristas.

Aggro on my ogres is rare. The combination of native DPS (from the missile launchers), EWAR (apply damp to structures, , AI don't know the difference) and logistics (I launch a can and shield rep it because Ogres will soon fly out of rep range) generates a level of threat the NPCs have a hard time ignoring.

Some rare aggro switching occurs but I've only like a handful of ogres (less than 5) in the 3 months I used this ship full time. Vexor NI, Ishtar and Domi work fine doing this but aren't as good as Gila/Rattlesnake/Armageddon because of the missiles.

In null sec it's a LOT easier because instead of a damp I use ECM burst. In my experience (and it could just be my imagination), the npcs hate ecm/ecm burst and damps way more than they dislike Webs and TPs.

The npc AI is just easy to game and you can get an idea of it from the stuff Stoic posted.

Edit, oh and orbit the can with AB on to keep from getting squished.


I HAVE a Rattlesnake, I might just try it, hey thanks for the fit! I was HOPING someone had figured out how to work the AI. Its been a while now, an EVE players tend to be pretty smart at this lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#17 - 2014-04-15 01:50:59 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
NPCs (at least in missions) like to target their own "size" in drones. Frigates will attack lights, battleships will attack heavies.

But yeah, it does seem kinda random. I wonder...

/runs_off_to_check_something



The random and difficult to understand component is an "encounter" tick. In my experience, a gurista ded 7 will either present no drone aggro for the entire complex, or it will repeatedly drone aggro, based on time spent. in its worst configuration, it is indistinguishable from sleepers, and will reliably aggro on drones every 45 seconds if the drones happen to be shooting.

The gurista ded 7 is an excellent thing to replicate the finding with, because its not hard to find, and it can be observed in the different modes, and its utterly clear because the ded-huge-spawn-omatic gives you ample time to observe the state, repeatedly in each pocket. (you don't really tank 10-12 battleships at once in a mission unless you are bad).

IMO the encounter tick is either always there, but rolls random strength, or rolls random durations that are approximately multiples of 45 seconds. There may be a grace period on each grid before it starts.

In my experience, sleepers almost always roll 45 (or full strength), deds randomly roll all sorts of variations, missions often roll "off or low strength" and anomolies almost never roll it.

The more amusing thing is that the Maze can roll the encounter tick the same way, and if it does, the elites at the end will eat your drones every 45 seconds if you don't have one webbed. If it doesn't roll it, you can kill all 20+ elites without retracting your drones, and I can tell you before I get to the last pocket, which thing will occur from observing the earlier pockets.

The flipside is that its easy to chaff your way out of the maze in that condition - which gives a tactical upperhand to a droneboat when there is 1 neutral opponent with a tengu, ie if I've started the maze first, I'll get out before he gets there and then chase him in with curators, but he can't make the opposite occur to me, he has to carry his own point to make me stick.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#18 - 2014-04-15 01:52:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
[Gila, semi afk Sweeper]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Small 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Small 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x7
Hobgoblin II x7

Fit for Guristas.

Aggro on my ogres is rare. The combination of native DPS (from the missile launchers), EWAR (apply damp to structures, , AI don't know the difference) and logistics (I launch a can and shield rep it because Ogres will soon fly out of rep range) generates a level of threat the NPCs have a hard time ignoring.

Some rare aggro switching occurs but I've only like a handful of ogres (less than 5) in the 3 months I used this ship full time. Vexor NI, Ishtar and Domi work fine doing this but aren't as good as Gila/Rattlesnake/Armageddon because of the missiles.

In null sec it's a LOT easier because instead of a damp I use ECM burst. In my experience (and it could just be my imagination), the npcs hate ecm/ecm burst and damps way more than they dislike Webs and TPs.

The npc AI is just easy to game and you can get an idea of it from the stuff Stoic posted.

Edit, oh and orbit the can with AB on to keep from getting squished.


Off topic, but why are you running Ogres on Guristas? Caldari drones more or less shine under those conditions.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#19 - 2014-04-15 02:00:56 UTC
What I think they did in the latest patch was make the drone aggro thing to be more size sensitive, which causes a gunnery dominix to retrieve battleship aggro from sentry drones on the timer.

This I have seen occasionally but note I don't use battleships for deds where the timer is common, so its only been in the very rare anomoly that has rolled the timer. the gallente cruisers are basically drone signature sized, and having nothing like the hitting power of domi turrets, so I don't think I'll ever see it in a ded unless I take a domi in for laughs.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#20 - 2014-04-15 02:20:50 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
[Gila, semi afk Sweeper]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Small 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Small 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x7
Hobgoblin II x7

Fit for Guristas.

Aggro on my ogres is rare. The combination of native DPS (from the missile launchers), EWAR (apply damp to structures, , AI don't know the difference) and logistics (I launch a can and shield rep it because Ogres will soon fly out of rep range) generates a level of threat the NPCs have a hard time ignoring.

Some rare aggro switching occurs but I've only like a handful of ogres (less than 5) in the 3 months I used this ship full time. Vexor NI, Ishtar and Domi work fine doing this but aren't as good as Gila/Rattlesnake/Armageddon because of the missiles.

In null sec it's a LOT easier because instead of a damp I use ECM burst. In my experience (and it could just be my imagination), the npcs hate ecm/ecm burst and damps way more than they dislike Webs and TPs.

The npc AI is just easy to game and you can get an idea of it from the stuff Stoic posted.

Edit, oh and orbit the can with AB on to keep from getting squished.


Off topic, but why are you running Ogres on Guristas? Caldari drones more or less shine under those conditions.


Did they change the idea that Ogre/Hammerhead/Hobgoblins do more damage overall while I was gone? Not being sarcastic, serious question. Ive never used anything but those three

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

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