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I hate learning implants. Please add learning boosters.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#41 - 2014-04-13 00:41:05 UTC
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so. New players also have less ISK thus value their implants more than vets, and rightly so.

The mechanic in itself benefits the players that need it least, while being detrimental to the players that need it most.

I'm not against training implants personally however I do think new players need an option of sorts to keep up with the vets. Perhaps new Cerebral Accelerators that last longer - up to you a year +2 all around for example - which provides the permanent boost in training for newer players.

EDIT: Oh, Zappity beat me to it it would seem!


Yeah, this isn't really true.

A new player will always be able to close the gap faster than a veteran can increase it. Implants aside, even.

The people who need it, are the people with month long training queues. We will not, ever, increase new player retention by turning their 9hr queue into an 8hr one. That's not even noticeable.

We will almost certainly lose older players by turning their 40 day queue into a 50 day one. Especially when those are the only things they have left.

A few hours here and there are nothing. Weeks here and there? Yeah, that's something.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-04-13 00:41:20 UTC
This is why you have multiple alts with +5 jump clones. Problem solved.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#43 - 2014-04-13 00:42:24 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Hey Zappity!

Well... the implants definitely have their spot in the game.

They are great for those who believe that they are worth it.
Great for those who want to cut down on time needed to skill for stuff.

Problem arises only if those who want to skill fast are also those who like to pew!

You know that yourself. You question what they add to the game,
while at the same time you're actually a happy user... until moments like this one come up.

Does that really make sense or is it just the "pain" or "fear of losing them" speaking here?

You seem to want to have both the cake and eat it at the same time... but we both know that won't work.

What it adds to the game is benefit for those who want to use them. It also adds thrill for those few
who use them and at the same time RISK them. You know that too!

You say you don't want to jump into your PvP clone, because you don't want to lose the benefit...

Maybe you're taking it a bit more serious than necessary? Maybe the speedup isn't actually worth it
for such short amounts of time? Have you done the math? How much do you lose if you don't have
them plugged in for a week or two? And... do you REALLY lose anything?

What's worth more? The fun you could have (which you are missing out by choice, as you say),
or the day or two you get to use something better/earlier?

Time goes by anyway, doesn't it?

Hey Solstice. Correct - I do want my cake and eat it too. It isn't about risk aversion but rather choosing between learning implants and PvP implants (or whatever other implants there are). I don't like it.

But Malcanis makes a good point - why not just have both? I would like learning drugs to stack on top of whatever implants I choose to sit in. Make 'em expensive.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2014-04-13 00:45:15 UTC
Zappity, why not make them expensive... and only available in lowsec? Might be a much needed economic boost for the denizens of low.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#45 - 2014-04-13 00:50:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity, why not make them expensive... and only available in lowsec? Might be a much needed economic boost for the denizens of low.

Do you know I almost wrote that in the OP but thought it would distract. Limit a required cloud to lowsec! We would see swarms of Ventures.

Oh, and allow them in contracts.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#46 - 2014-04-13 00:52:09 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Zappity wrote:

How does sitting in a station help?


You are choosing to sit in the station.

Absolutely. I never said it was right or logical, just that it happens. And the result is that I am not there to be shot at.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-04-13 00:54:18 UTC
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.


If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification.

The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further.


My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-04-13 01:03:26 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.


If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification.

The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further.


My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway.


This is it. Right here.

Not everyone is cut out for EVE and it's best to discover that early.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#49 - 2014-04-13 01:54:44 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
PrettyMuch Always Right wrote:

The issue for me is how it relates to new players.

New players are already behind in SP thus value their SP gains more than vets, and rightly so.


If a new player gets impatient waiting 2 or 3 days for a level IV skill what happens when they hit 30 or 40 day skills? Impatient people are never going to stay indefinitely, the game is not designed for instant gratification.

The skill system is setup so you can get 80% of the value of a skill in the first 20% of training and level V takes the other 80% of training days for just 20% more. Recent changes including the reworking of drone skills in the summer expansion seem designed to reduce the difference between level IV and level IV training even further.


My personal opinion is all the changes to make it easier for new players including the crazy +17 implants are just encouraging people to play that will end up getting disgruntled when all the super implants and bonuses run out. It would be far better for the game long term to stop giving out these stupid newbie boosts and in fact put the LP price on standard implants up. Sure a few people would quit earlier but long term they are going to rage quit eventually anyway.


This is it. Right here.

Not everyone is cut out for EVE and it's best to discover that early.

Even better to provide more options to new players and keep them in the game.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Xeator
soldiers.fi
#50 - 2014-04-13 02:17:01 UTC
I really dont understand why people want to cling onto learning implants, its like the learning skills...

Just make it more streamlined eg:
Available stat bonuses from implants
+1, +2 and +3

In terms of learning speed
+1 becomes the current +3
+2 becomes the current +4
+3 becomes the current +5

Current +5 and +4 are removed.

Current set implants with +3 are as strong as the old +5 with added bonuses.

There you have it, people can retain learning capability while having nice bonuses for flying ships.

Problem solved, everyone is happy.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-04-13 02:18:54 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I hate learning implants. I have a +5 learning clone sitting in Jita which I jump to if I will be away from game for a few days.....


Get away from me you filthy casual.
Lol



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#52 - 2014-04-13 02:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
Or just run cheaper implants like others have said? Sure dropping the 500 mil for a full set of 5's is nice but +3's work too. And in all honesty +4's would work too.

Thats the cost of using attribute implants, Increased skill point allocation, but with the chance of getting podded and losing all dat isk.


500m for a full set now?

Damnit. I spent almost 2b for mine. Still wearing them though, so I don't see the problem. I only jump in my +5 clone when I know I'll be away from the game for a few weeks anyway. Used skill ghosting and +5s to get DI V.

Good times.


Why do we have the +5 implant mechanic?

Tears. Progress is meaningless without risk. You might as well argue that Titans are too expensive and the price should be reduced to encourage pvp.

Implants create opportunity but they also increase risk, which is pretty much the stated intent of the devs when introducing any mechanic.

Anyway, your OP reads more as a complaint about the wait time between jump clones. So argue for a reduction of the jump clone time instead of hating on implants.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#53 - 2014-04-13 03:29:17 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
You could just not plug in +5s. They don't save much time and you'd have less reason to not PVP.

Mr Epeen Cool


The difference between +4 and +5 is about the equivalent of training a 3x skill to level 5 over the course of a year. For some it is negligible, for me it matters.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-04-13 08:21:45 UTC
Xeator wrote:
I really dont understand why people want to cling onto learning implants, its like the learning skills...

Just make it more streamlined eg:
Available stat bonuses from implants
+1, +2 and +3

In terms of learning speed
+1 becomes the current +3
+2 becomes the current +4
+3 becomes the current +5

Current +5 and +4 are removed.

Current set implants with +3 are as strong as the old +5 with added bonuses.

There you have it, people can retain learning capability while having nice bonuses for flying ships.

Problem solved, everyone is happy.



Sillyness, it is the 4 and 5 implants that need to go.


A better solution is leave +1 to +3 as is but double the price.

Then replace the +4 and +5 with modified +3s similiar to the CA implants.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#55 - 2014-04-13 09:25:46 UTC
Zappity wrote:
It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.

You're trying to get around EVE's rule #1. Also, since it seems to hurt, it's a balanced game mechanic.



Remove standings and insurance.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#56 - 2014-04-13 09:29:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Chribba
Never forget Learning Skills...

But yes it's a tough choice between learning implants or other cool implants.

ninja/only train when in space... that should cause for forced pvp-ish (or at least the opportunity of pvp)

/c

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Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-04-13 09:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Starkey
Zappity wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes...

I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away.

Most of the time.

It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.


Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.

It would not be a bad idea if they changed implants to something similar to the starter boosters, though. Temporary effect but not lost if you get podded. It would maintain the same demand (as people still have to replace them periodically), while not favouring the alts that stay in station all day over the people who are actually doing something in the game.

Either way I'm fine with it.

I've made a signature. I hope you're enjoying it. www.evetrademaster.com - web based asset manager & profit tracker
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#58 - 2014-04-13 09:42:20 UTC
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#59 - 2014-04-13 09:44:07 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes...

I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away.

Most of the time.

It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.


No it does not discourage PVP, it doesn't even have anything to do with PVP.

Only in game effect of learning implants is that they increase the rate of SP accumulation.
Nick Starkey
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-04-13 10:17:47 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Nick Starkey wrote:
Your ship exploding also discourages PVP, does it not? Afteral, I'm sure a lot more people would PVP if they didn't lose their ISK while doing so. Just like the ship it's a risk/reward thing that you have to accept.


Reductio ad absurdum. And daft too - how many times has it been said that this is not about ISK? Learning implants are cheap compared to the good stuff.


orly? Because I could replace ships with implants in your original post and it would sound just the same. You already have jump clones to fix your issue, and you need no more than 2 +3 implants to have most of your training time worth it which are very cheap. The +5 implants are designed to be a priviledge, not a right. I don't really see an issue with this at all.

They don't "discourage" PVP more than any other penalty such as losing ships or security status whatsoever. They are also nothing alike learning skills, which were a stupid feature. Learning skills forced non-gameplay for an accelerated gain in future. Learning implants are just as effective inside a station as they are in lowsec, and they allow you to gain the benefit _now_ instead of forcing a long wait before that.

I've made a signature. I hope you're enjoying it. www.evetrademaster.com - web based asset manager & profit tracker