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The 'Local' chat issue
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#201 - 2014-04-13 01:07:01 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:



Actually I am pretty sure it's intentional.

For one thing, the original programmers of EVE were hell bent on reinventing the wheel. Even their original forum software seemed to be done by them personally, and it was borked all to hell. Off the rack is not how they did things.

Secondly, every other MMO I have ever played allowed for the chat channels to be polled for population--- /who [name], /whoall, etc. No where but EVE have I seen chat display a constantly updated list of who is in a given channel. Even most chat boards and such don't display that info as a constantly updating list.


Its an IRC channel system. In fact bugs used to exist where you could put your character name into any local in EVE and see who was there.


It is, and in a way you made my point. There are many IRC channel systems. Long before there was EVE, chat systems existed. Rather than using an off the rack system, they made their own, and it was full of bugs. This was pretty common all the way up to a few years ago, where rather than using working solutions for basic things they made their own custom versions that worked weird.

The chat system works exactly as they intend it to. The local list is not an oversight, it is an intentional part of the game doing exactly what they intend for it to do. It would be far too simple to fix otherwise. In fact, they have added functionality to it that it didn't used to have over the years.
Stig Sterling
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2014-04-13 03:07:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The specific concern is that an AFK cloaked ship can prevent all operations in a given system. This is a legitimate concern because it does indeed seem to be a broken side-effect.


As it is, the only way we currently know a ship is cloaked is because the pilot shows up in local. So if local was removed, you probably would not know that there is a cloaked ship in your system. This I assume would be one of the selling points for the removal of local- there could be anybody in your system doing almost anything, and you may never know.

So the only way that a cloaked ship could "prevent all operations in a given system" is if the residents of that system are too scared of their own shadows to leave the comfort of their Station/POS just on the chance that a ship could be cloaked in their system.

Even if the ship was some sort of Black Ops assassin he would still have to decloak to do anything, and would therefore be vulnerable (and more importantly- predictable).
Justin Cody
War Firm
#203 - 2014-04-13 04:00:33 UTC
Stig Sterling wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The specific concern is that an AFK cloaked ship can prevent all operations in a given system. This is a legitimate concern because it does indeed seem to be a broken side-effect.


As it is, the only way we currently know a ship is cloaked is because the pilot shows up in local. So if local was removed, you probably would not know that there is a cloaked ship in your system. This I assume would be one of the selling points for the removal of local- there could be anybody in your system doing almost anything, and you may never know.

So the only way that a cloaked ship could "prevent all operations in a given system" is if the residents of that system are too scared of their own shadows to leave the comfort of their Station/POS just on the chance that a ship could be cloaked in their system.

Even if the ship was some sort of Black Ops assassin he would still have to decloak to do anything, and would therefore be vulnerable (and more importantly- predictable).


any concern about cloaking is illegitimate by default as cloaked ships can't hurt you. When they decloak however...then the hurt *might start* and often cloaked ships have a disadvantage in terms of damage and hit points. I can for example confirm that my sin...despite being pimp fit has less HP and EHP than a dominix or navy dominix. It CAN do up to about 1200-1300 dps...but that is if I do a shield gank fit...which isn't a good idea necessarily when dropping carriers. At the moment I think it only does about 554 dps because I have it performing a slightly different role. I am fine with this. What I am not fine with is you knowing that I am there simply for occupying space.

In low sec and high sec you have an argument that police are monitoring channels and force capsuleers to log in via their IFF's. In Null-sec I think the sov entities need to pay for infrastructure for that support. In NPC null I think there is more room for debate. I'd be fine with local remaining *instant on* there.

I am not arguing that local should be taken away..only that it should be a privilege that you pay for. So in your safe safe mining system if you paid for the upgrade as a part of your sov bill...nothing would change. I'd have this attached to a POS mod like the cyno jammer so a small gang...or medium gang can come in and mess with you. Give it 15M HP just like the cyno jammer.

This is another avenue for isk sinking in null and adds to capsuleers being able to mess with each-other and their isk making activities. *cue the awox alt off-lining the mod right before/after DT*. Of course a notice should be generated in your mail if the mod is off-lined or on-lined visible to the people with the right roles. No one is saying you can't have local at all...just to pay for it. maybe its too expensive in some systems. maybe that helps to hide our fleets while we black ops or pounce on some targets. This isn't about miners specifically. In-fact most of our ganks are ratters in carriers. How about them apples.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#204 - 2014-04-13 04:48:41 UTC
While I don't really have a problem with local remaining as it is, I don't have much of a problem with making it so that in 0.0 you have to have a sov structure in place to see who is in local with you.

Corporations could choose to leave it offline in certain systems to facilitate fleet stagings, gate camps, etc. Or have it on so they gain the intel warnings.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#205 - 2014-04-14 14:09:18 UTC
Stig Sterling wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

The specific concern is that an AFK cloaked ship can prevent all operations in a given system. This is a legitimate concern because it does indeed seem to be a broken side-effect.


As it is, the only way we currently know a ship is cloaked is because the pilot shows up in local. So if local was removed, you probably would not know that there is a cloaked ship in your system. This I assume would be one of the selling points for the removal of local- there could be anybody in your system doing almost anything, and you may never know.

So the only way that a cloaked ship could "prevent all operations in a given system" is if the residents of that system are too scared of their own shadows to leave the comfort of their Station/POS just on the chance that a ship could be cloaked in their system.

Even if the ship was some sort of Black Ops assassin he would still have to decloak to do anything, and would therefore be vulnerable (and more importantly- predictable).



So much of the same tired non-logic.

Do you engage targets when they have superior numbers, or engage your own hard counter?

That is what a cloaked ship represents to PvE activity. Ratters can shoot back, but by ratting in the system you know their resist profile by just looking at the local rats, and you can be pretty sure of disengaging at any time because points and ewar are ineffective on rats. That is the best case scenario, because you might be mining or hauling instead, without even the possibility of weapons or significant tank.

Why would a PvE pilot undock with an unknown neut in system? Its not fear, its common sense. 'Counters' are baiting, which is only effective if the pilot is actually active, or just keeping a combat wing on grid--- either of which ties up multiple active players because one guy managed to get in system and activate a module that requires little trade off of any kind.

Its not really that having a neut in system makes you unable to use the system, but that the threat represented by a single ship is too far out of proportion to the response needed to counter it, and that projecting that disproportionate threat is a 100% safe, passive, and cheap endeavor.

All of which is common knowledge, it serves nothing to be disengenious and pretend like bears are just being cowards for not undocking in easy targets with potential hostiles in system. Gameplay for ratters and the design of the ships themselves for other PvE leave those ships with no personal defensive measures but evasion. Those ships are owned and flown by supposedly intelligent people, and are not simply npc loot pinatas. Neuts in system must be dealt with as an active fleet of unknown size and composition, which means PvE in the area gets suspended unless you are suicidal or just not smart.