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Where does the ISK go?

Author
yumike
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-11-15 18:48:47 UTC
Frost Mistress wrote:
yumike wrote:
Kara Books wrote:

+6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies.
Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.


That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item.
ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed.
Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer.


I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time)



Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#22 - 2011-11-15 19:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
yumike wrote:
Frost Mistress wrote:
yumike wrote:
Kara Books wrote:

+6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies.
Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.


That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item.
ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed.
Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer.


I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time)



Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims


Every single character in this game WILL eventually use some form or shape of an implant.

If I go do some Amattar navy missions, and accumulate 1 billion Loyalty points AND 1 billion ISK at the same time:

I Accumulated 1 billion ISK from a faucet (correct?)

If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend.
a +5 implant runs about 65 million Loyalty points and 65 Million ISK.

So, DISAPPEARS into THIN AIR, both 65M isk and 65M loyalty points at the same time.

For every LP turned in the same amount of ISK you "Turn in"


Then you go Sell this implant on the market to people who maybe Mined minerals, sold the minerals and used the ISK to buy the implant.
Or some one who bought a PLEX from CCP and sold it on the market then used the ISK from the sale to buy the implant.

I tried my best to clear it up.
Frost Mistress
Angel Heart Ammo Co.
#23 - 2011-11-16 05:28:57 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
yumike wrote:
Frost Mistress wrote:
yumike wrote:
Kara Books wrote:

+6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies.
Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.


That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item.
ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed.
Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer.


I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time)



Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims


Every single character in this game WILL eventually use some form or shape of an implant.

If I go do some Amattar navy missions, and accumulate 1 billion Loyalty points AND 1 billion ISK at the same time:

I Accumulated 1 billion ISK from a faucet (correct?)

If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend.
a +5 implant runs about 65 million Loyalty points and 65 Million ISK.

So, DISAPPEARS into THIN AIR, both 65M isk and 65M loyalty points at the same time.

For every LP turned in the same amount of ISK you "Turn in"


Then you go Sell this implant on the market to people who maybe Mined minerals, sold the minerals and used the ISK to buy the implant.
Or some one who bought a PLEX from CCP and sold it on the market then used the ISK from the sale to buy the implant.

I tried my best to clear it up.


Yes that is how I understood the person that mentioned implants being a sink. Just from the LP store cost not selling to players which is just a transfer of isk from player to player.

Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you. Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total * 

Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#24 - 2011-11-16 08:17:31 UTC
Kara Books wrote:


If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend.


For implants, it's typically 1,000 isk for each LP. But yes, this is a fair sized isk sink.
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#25 - 2011-11-28 23:38:28 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts.

There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now.


I'm sorry, could somebody link this? I'm not having much luck searching for it but I would like to read it. Thanks for your trouble.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-11-29 22:09:15 UTC
There really needs to be a wiki page about this with explanation and examples. A day does not pass in MD without someone claiming that them losing their faction fitted Machariel is an ISK sink.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#27 - 2011-11-30 06:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Goodgodyourface wrote:
Frost Mistress wrote:
What are the isk sinks in the game? Seems to me that there should be piles and piles of ISK by now with no real sink. At least none I see.

Ships get blown up yes, but the ships where sold by players so while the ships owner lost ISK, ISK was not removed from the game. Menerials are mined and sold by players with litle sinks minus some brooker fees and usage fees. Where does all this cahs go? Is it that a few over eager traders and manufactures are sitting on trillions and trillions of ISK? That one day they can introduce to the market and screw all of EvEs economy? Ssay give every player on 1 trill is and watch T1 Frigates start going for 50 Mil a pop.

Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.


Example with random numbers, don't freak out:

1.) Player buys battleship for 100mil ISK. Insures for full coverage.
2.) Player buys 50mil ISK in modules.
3.) Ship gets
a.) Killed by rats, wreck out in the middle of nowhere
b.) Killed by players, some loot is recovered and maybe salvaging is done, but some stuff is inevitably lost
4.) Player gets ISK back for ship, but loses
a.) 50mil ISK in modules (- whatever was recovered, if anything)
b.) However much the implants in their head was worth
c.) Any ammo, cargo, etc. that was in the ship and not looted

That's where the money goes. Implants, and loot lost in wreckage.


Absolute rubbish - do not listen to this person.

ISK appears in the game via rat bounties, mission rewards, trade purchases from NPC corps and insurance payouts.

ISK disappears from the game via BPO and trade purchases from NPC corporations, insurance premiums, loyalty store purchases that involve ISK, taxes, PI taxes, PI factories and extractors, skillbook and clone purchases.

When you buy a battleship for 100mil ISK, you are giving 100mil ISK to another player who made your battleship. ISK does not leave the game. When you insure your ship ISK leaves the game - however you will be paid back your premium plus an extra amount, so insurance purchasing is actually a faucet not a sink. If you let your insurance expire or the policy is voided, it becomes a sink.

When you buy 50 mil ISK in modules, you are giving 50 mil ISK to other players. ISK does not leave the game when you buy modules.

When your ship gets destroyed, no ISK is destroyed. In fact ISK is created because you receive an insurance payout. Whether modules are destroyed or looted is irrelevant since they do not involve ISK.

You must understand that there are two economies - the ISK economy and the material economy. Material comes into the game via moon mining, PI, ice/roid mining, and loot drops from rats. Material is destroyed when a ship is destroyed and/or modules are deleted, or when players reprocess into minerals (including the refinery loss). Players interchange both material and ISK. Material makes ISK move from one player to another. However the destruction of material does not affect ISK at all.

While you THINK you are losing 1 billion ISK when that faction module gets destroyed - you are not losing anything except the module. The 1 billion ISK was already paid to someone else when you bought it, and that person still has the ISK whether the module exists or not. And it would cost you 1 billion ISK to buy another one, but that has nothing to do with the module that just got deleted.

Hope this helps clear things up.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#28 - 2011-11-30 06:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
By "class" of ISK sink...

Largest ISK sink : NPC-sold items - blueprint originals and skillbooks

Second largest ISK sink : LPshop items - almost all of them need both LP and ISK to purchase

Third largest ISK sink : various NPC taxes and fees - market sales tax, broker fees, office rentals, wardecs, sovereignty costs, ship insurance costs (NOT payouts) and other similar things

Everything else is negligible in comparison (if there's even anything left unmentioned).

...

By "class" of ISK source (or "faucet", if you prefer)...

Largest ISK source : NPC pirate ship bounties (anything from 65% to 90% of the TOTAL ISK added to the game in any given day)

Second largest ISK source : agent mission rewards (combined regular+bonus pay, between 10% and 25% of the total ISK)

Third largest ISK source : insurance payouts (up to 10% of the total ISK tops, nowadays most likely noticeably less since CONCORDokening no longer pays insurance)

Everything else is negligible (all combined almost certainly under 10%).
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#29 - 2011-11-30 06:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Tekota wrote:
To be honest, most of what is listed there is not the destruction of isk but the destruction of minerals.

Isk sinks are any time you pay, with isk, an NPC corp for any good or service. So, sales tax, brokers fees, LP store purchases, T1 BPO purchases, office rental fees, insurance paid for but not claimed upon etc.

Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.

That one is trickier, I guess this will always only ever be known (if it is) by CCP. My only sure fire hunch is that more money must be coming into eve than leaving but the ratio would be a complete guess.


Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.

Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#30 - 2011-11-30 06:58:04 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)

Define "a lot" Lol
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#31 - 2011-11-30 06:58:22 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)

Define "a lot" Lol


Trillions.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#32 - 2011-11-30 07:02:55 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)

Define "a lot" Lol

Trillions.

I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments.
Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#33 - 2011-11-30 07:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Akita T wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)

Define "a lot" Lol

Trillions.

I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments.
Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid.


WTB ISK!
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#34 - 2011-11-30 12:19:27 UTC
Dream Five wrote:

Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.

Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)


You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#35 - 2011-11-30 23:36:42 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Dream Five wrote:

Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.

Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)


You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth.


I'm sorry dude but I don't think you read what i wrote.
Adunh Slavy
#36 - 2011-11-30 23:58:48 UTC
Dream Five wrote:

Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.


Been a while since I read it, but Skill Books were the largest Sink, LP was next and then taxes/fees.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Frost Mistress
Angel Heart Ammo Co.
#37 - 2011-12-01 04:43:35 UTC
Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub.

Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you. Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total * 

Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#38 - 2011-12-01 04:47:39 UTC
Frost Mistress wrote:
Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub.

Although I believe Incursions are severely imbalancing the isk faucet/sink thing (e.g. I made about 400mill in rewards from Incursion running, and only got around 50k LP, which is not nearly enough of a sink), the ISK in this game is fairly well balanced.
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-12-01 04:58:36 UTC
I'm a bit curious if CCP has all sinks pool into one NPC wallet. Would also be interesting to see how much isk is made in one day and how much isk was removed in one day. Or in one hour.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!

Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
#40 - 2011-12-01 12:48:11 UTC
From the graph in QUEN4 2010 (and discarding the last quarter here the removal of the training skill skewed a buit the expenses in training skills):

Isk sinks:
skills: about 6 trillions
blueprints: 4-5 trillions
LP store: 4 trillions
Transaction tax 1 trillion
Broker fee 1 trillion

Sovereignty costs, offices rentals and insurance cost aren't even cited, so each one of those expenses should be under the trillion.


Isk faucets:
Bounties: 24 trillions
commodities sales 5-6 trillions
Agent mission reward 2-3 triillions
Mission time bonus 2-3 billions

From that QUEN:
"EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly
concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation
increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus
on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation."

Maybe the new PI tax rate is a step in that direction, but it will be counter balanced by moving from NPC owned to player owned custom offices in low sec and 0.0.

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