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Stealth Winmatar Buff
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Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2011-12-01 07:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Would limiting damage types available to minmatar to kin/exp be a reasonable balancing option ?

For reference, I'm a fairly new player still learning game mechanics but exclusively minmatar.


Barrage, the falloff-bonused ammo for ACs that they complain about, is already fixed damage type. Without a falloff bonus, you have to be bold enough to get very close to scram/web/neut range to break even on applied damge with ammo that allows damage type selection, even with 2x tracking enhancers (20km falloff).
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2011-12-01 08:18:04 UTC
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
Would limiting damage types available to minmatar to kin/exp be a reasonable balancing option ?

For reference, I'm a fairly new player still learning game mechanics but exclusively minmatar.


Could work , I still dont understand why they have the emp ammo, it is just ridiculous.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2011-12-01 09:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Alara IonStorm wrote:

No because it should not exist.


Your right it doesn, that was the point.

Alara IonStorm wrote:
would do less dmg then heavy Missiles at it's Optimal with Scorch as well so calm down. It just has the option of doing higher Dmg close up which it a good thing.


Oh so more damage is fine just not more damage than you?

Alara IonStorm wrote:


Tornado has a 5% Falloff. I love when your point involves being wrong about something you were already wrong about after mistaking a bonus on a Battlecruiser right below an exageration of range on the Harbinger. Your points are better made when you don't make so many mistakes.


We were talking about a Hurricane.... obviously the fact that Tornadoe's 5% falloff bonus only applies to BATTLESHIP SIZED TURRETS would make that a) an outlier, and b) a **** poor comparsion to a Hurricane that mounts MEDIUM guns now would it.

My mistake I wasn't in la la land, I asked where the ship you modeled you numbers was.....

Alara IonStorm wrote:

That Armor Cane would get 440 DPS with 425mm with RF Ammo(which it could fit now) not counting Drones. As for one Neut sure two is to much for it and should be nerfed.


LOL don't like counter fits do you?

For a shield cane, the idea is generally to stay the hell out of neut range and use the neuts for anti-tackle.......UNLESS of course its an Amarr ship, then you leg hump.

This is the idea of rock-paper-scissors, and seriously I douby highly your are going to get 425mm without the ROF bonus
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2011-12-01 09:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Alara IonStorm wrote:


As for comparing it cut the Trajectory Analysis off of a Vega or Cyn to get the correct number. I can not believe I have to spoon feed you this.


Sorry I generally have better things to do than figuring out model ship bonus cominations that don't exist.


Onictus wrote:

"It'll still win", whch is horseshit, if a shield cane is beating you in an armor Harbi solo your are doing it wrong. I intentially avoid them because a decent point will chase me off the field or draw it out until I screw up. Three times I've JUST managed to escape by virtue of suddely ECM drones when I've tried it.

But again, I want to hear how making a Harbi fire to lock inside optimal is in ANY way balanced.


Alara IonStorm wrote:

Fact you can disengage. That is Minmatars strength. You want them to be hard to catch and beat the slowpokes at the same time? Again can not hit to lock range that's twice now.


Using ECM drones is a hurricane specific? Really? This is obviously call for a nerf.

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Your Lock is 62km, with the bonus and Heavy Pulse Scorch you could not hit that far. Why is it that you keep posting wrong numbers. I know you want to here something other then your numbers are wrong but they are again and they make up your argument.


Remove High Slot from Drake, Cane, Harbinger. Remove Weapon Hardpoint from Drake and Harbinger. Give 7.5-10% Opt Bonus to Harbinger replacing Cap Bonus. Replace Cane Rof Bonus with Opt / Falloff / Tracking Bonus. Cut Heavy Missile Flight Time so Heavies work out to 50-60 Km. Leave current Myrm in as is.


BTW the new 10% Opt Harbinger stats with Heavypulse would be able to hit that far to it's optimal range with 2 TC's. While a Cane hitting that far would be so far in it's falloff it's Damage would be a joke.




It was your argument when you started talking about your idea of "balance"......or are you saying you didn't post that a page ago.
Alara IonStorm
#125 - 2011-12-01 10:00:37 UTC
Onictus wrote:

Your right it doesn, that was the point.

Yes there are 500DPS Arty Fits. Roll
Onictus wrote:

We were talking about a Hurricane.... obviously the fact that Tornadoe's 5% falloff bonus only applies to BATTLESHIP SIZED TURRETS would make that a) an outlier, and b) a **** poor comparsion to a Hurricane that mounts MEDIUM guns now would it.

My mistake I wasn't in la la land, I asked where the ship you modeled you numbers was.....

Sorry I generally have better things to do than figuring out model ship bonus cominations that don't exist

No you said that no Minmatar ships had the bonus which is another point where you are of course wrong. There is one, I told you how I modeled the numbers.

I especially like the part when you say you have nothing to compare it to after I tell you what you can compare it to then so say the underlined. It shows by all the wrong information you posted. If you do not want to do the research perhaps you should not post about it.
Onictus wrote:

LOL don't like counter fits do you?

For a shield cane, the idea is generally to stay the hell out of neut range and use the neuts for anti-tackle.......UNLESS of course its an Amarr ship, then you leg hump.

This is the idea of rock-paper-scissors, and seriously I douby highly your are going to get 425mm without the ROF bonus

Counter fits are fine but the Cane should get 1 Neut. I don't see what fitting gun size has to do with an RoF Bonus but I am gonna take a wild stab and guess that you meant to say something else again but got it wrong.

Onictus wrote:

Using ECM drones is a hurricane specific? Really? This is obviously call for a nerf.

Minmatar can disengage without ECM Drones based on speed alone how do you not get this. Your the only one talking bout ECM Drones.
Onictus wrote:

It was your argument when you started talking about your idea of "balance"......or are you saying you didn't post that a page ago.

I was right then and am now.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2011-12-01 11:23:28 UTC
[

Perhaps I figure that there was some logic going on there, but you picked two words out of the sentence.....of COURSE I didn't use the Tornado to see what the ranges for a hurricane with a falloff bonus would be they use different size turrets.

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Counter fits are fine but the Cane should get 1 Neut. I don't see what fitting gun size has to do with an RoF Bonus but I am gonna take a wild stab and guess that you meant to say something else again but got it wrong.


Ok ROF=25% = 33% overall DPS Yes? So DO tell how after you cut a high slot and remove 30% DPS from the hull you are getting 440DPS with 6 guns and damage bonus........with 220mm ACs?

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Minmatar can disengage without ECM Drones based on speed alone how do you not get this. Your the only one talking bout ECM Drones.


Again context.....maybe because I was talking about an ARMOR fit Hurri...just maybe?

...and even then, ANY ship faster than it's target "should" be able to disengage that is why speed is important.

Or should we nerf everything faster than a Harbi as well.



Alara IonStorm wrote:

I was right then and am now.


nevermind you are worse than arguing with my mom.....
Alara IonStorm
#127 - 2011-12-01 11:35:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Onictus wrote:


Perhaps I figure that there was some logic going on there, but you picked two words out of the sentence.....of COURSE I didn't use the Tornado to see what the ranges for a hurricane with a falloff bonus would be they use different size turrets.

I have to tell you again. I told you how to get the numbers using medium turrets. Just cut Traj Analysis out of the equation on a 10% Falloff ship. The only reason I mentioned the Tornado was because you said no Minmatar ships had 5% Falloff Bonuses.
Onictus wrote:

Ok ROF=25% = 33% overall DPS Yes? So DO tell how after you cut a high slot and remove 30% DPS from the hull you are getting 440DPS with 6 guns and damage bonus........with 220mm ACs?

By fitting 425mm Auto's because the loss of the Neut frees up grid space.
Onictus wrote:

Again context.....maybe because I was talking about an ARMOR fit Hurri...just maybe?

...and even then, ANY ship faster than it's target "should" be able to disengage that is why speed is important.

Well that Armor fit still gets 440 Gun DPS, 60k+ Tank, Capless Weapons, 2x Webs and a Medium Neut. More then worth the price you pay for it.

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.
Onictus wrote:

nevermind you are worse than arguing with my mom.....

Is she single?
Wog Cyllen
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2011-12-01 11:57:06 UTC
Is Alara an alt of Naomi? They both have this magnificent gift of not making any ******* sense.

Now, Alara, I know you think that the crap you're pouring on us is smart, logical and based on facts, but trust me, it's everything BUT that. Please go learn to make a point, take some phrasing lessons, maybe look up "debate" in a dictionary and then come back. As it is now, you're just embarrassing yourself to no end.
Alara IonStorm
#129 - 2011-12-01 12:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Wog Cyllen wrote:
Is Alara an alt of Naomi? They both have this magnificent gift of not making any ******* sense.

Now, Alara, I know you think that the crap you're pouring on us is smart, logical and based on facts, but trust me, it's everything BUT that. Please go learn to make a point, take some phrasing lessons, maybe look up "debate" in a dictionary and then come back. As it is now, you're just embarrassing yourself to no end.

Roll

* Alt Accusations from a Faceless Character in an NPC Corp. /Check
* Pointless Insults with no Backing. /Check
* No Information to back up your statement. /Check

You just Hat Tricked the Forum Fail Kiddo.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2011-12-01 12:08:39 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

By fitting 425mm Auto's because the loss of the Neut frees up grid space.


Yes I know......I was being sarcastic


...and even then, ANY ship faster than it's target "should" be able to disengage that is why speed is important.
[/quote]
Well that Armor fit still gets 440 Gun DPS, 60k+ Tank, Capless Weapons, 2x Webs and a Medium Neut. More then worth the price you pay for it.

Alara IonStorm wrote:

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.


There are three VERY easy answers to a Hurricane, 1) Drake 2) ECM drones, 3) Tracking disrupter ignore them at your peril. EC-300s are the easy one, EVERYONE can carry them, and they must have a 60% success rate.....because Hurricane has crap for sensor strength.

OP implies there is no counter, nano-drakes tend to kick the crap out of a shield cane, and an with an armor fit its going to come down to luck on whether or not you burnout your MWD getting them in scram range.....I've had that go both ways.
Alara IonStorm
#131 - 2011-12-01 12:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Onictus wrote:

Yes I know......I was being sarcastic

Gonna want to look that up.
Onictus wrote:

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.


There are three VERY easy answers to a Hurricane, 1) Drake 2) ECM drones, 3) Tracking disrupter ignore them at your peril. EC-300s are the easy one, EVERYONE can carry them, and they must have a 60% success rate.....because Hurricane has crap for sensor strength.

OP implies there is no counter, nano-drakes tend to kick the crap out of a shield cane, and an with an armor fit its going to come down to luck on whether or not you burnout your MWD getting them in scram range.....I've had that go both ways.
[/quote]
So the answer to the Cane is Drake...

The problem in general is Teir 2 Battlecruisers as whole. They completely obsolete the Cruiser Class and are just too good for there price.

A Targeted nerf to the top 2 would help with the issue as well a change to Cruiser Roles through fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Bottom Line even with the missing Neut and Bonus Change the Hurricane will still be more then worth the price you pay for it.

Back on topic. Is she single?
Wog Cyllen
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2011-12-01 12:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Wog Cyllen
Alara IonStorm wrote:


* Pointless Insults with no Backing. /Check
* No Information to back up your statement. /Check

You just Hat Tricked the Forum Fail Kiddo.


Just go back and try to read your previous posts here and in other nerdrage "NERF THEM NOW!!" threads. There is all the proof and backing in your own confused words and phrasing. Would be kind of a futile attempt though, didn't see many people incapable of making a point or having a debate to actually realize or ever accept how silly they are. That's exactly the reason these threads go great lengths, they keep posting thinking they are actually make sense and some people are naive enough to think that if they really try could make you, Naomi, Verity & co to actually see reason. Not gonna bother to do that too, as I said, would be futile.

So keep having fun.
Alara IonStorm
#133 - 2011-12-01 12:17:18 UTC
Wog Cyllen wrote:

Just go back and try to read your previous posts here and in other nerdrage "NERF THEM NOW!!" threads. There is all the proof and backing in your own confused words and phrasing. Would be kind of a futile attempt though, didn't see many people incapable of making a point or having a debate to actually realize or ever accept how silly they are. That's exactly the reason these threads go great lengths, they keep posting thinking they are actually make sense and some people are naive enough to think that if they really try could make you, Naomi, Verity & co to actually see reason.

That is a lot of words to say I am right and you are wrong but I forgive your ignorance.

I am glad you agree with all my idea's fully and am going to go ahead and give you for first forum like sweet pea.

There you go now run along and play.
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2011-12-01 12:34:00 UTC
Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2011-12-01 12:41:05 UTC
AureoLion wrote:
Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.

Hopefully, pls teach us how to do that. As it seems for close range tornado is just superior , and for long range aka 100km insta pop arties are better , if there would be long range sniping reinstituted thing could be different.
At least rail naga is useable , not the best but useable , have to test it out thou in real situations.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-12-01 12:41:10 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
[
The problem in general is Teir 2 Battlecruisers as whole. They completely obsolete the Cruiser Class and are just too good for there price.


Debatable, upping the price would be a more elegant solution....and not nearly as targeted.

Not to mention I have a LOT of fun messing around in Cruisers, I have at least 6 vexors a couple rupies and numerous fleet stabbers.

Are they the best, not really, but they are fun.

Alara IonStorm wrote:
[
A Targeted nerf to the top 2 would help with the issue as well a change to Cruiser Roles through fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Bottom Line even with the missing Neut and Bonus Change the Hurricane will still be more then worth the price you pay for it.


Again debatable, considering that most of the T2 BCs are within 50mil of a T2 fit tier 1 BS I don't see the real issue.

T1 cruisers fit maybe 20mil, tier 2BCs 50-80 (yes, you spend 80 fitting a myrm usually) Tier 1 BS 130-150 Seems fairly linear to me

Alara IonStorm wrote:
[
Back on topic. Is she single?


Nope, my folks have been married for 35 years, sorry.
Alara IonStorm
#137 - 2011-12-01 12:52:12 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Debatable, upping the price would be a more elegant solution....and not nearly as targeted.

It would be a good way to handle it. That or changing Cruisers to be more Role based such as useful Logistics.

Really there is an issue and 1000 different ways to fix it. That was just my 2 Isk
Onictus wrote:

Nope, my folks have been married for 35 years, sorry.

Damn, but it is nice to see a Marriage work out in this day and age.

I think we pretty much argued all of the finer points of this one out. Sorry if I was a kind of a ****.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2011-12-01 12:57:52 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
AureoLion wrote:
Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.

Hopefully, pls teach us how to do that. As it seems for close range tornado is just superior , and for long range aka 100km insta pop arties are better , if there would be long range sniping reinstituted thing could be different.
At least rail naga is useable , not the best but useable , have to test it out thou in real situations.



Why in the hell would you let a Tornado close to a Naga.

Stay the hell away and nuke, because you are going to get ripped if he gets close.....UNLESS you managed to get a point on him and blaster tracking is signifigantly better than AC tracking now (yes, it is) and Naga's range bonus allows it to actually smack kiters.

Keep the transveral up.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2011-12-01 12:58:56 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Debatable, upping the price would be a more elegant solution....and not nearly as targeted.

It would be a good way to handle it. That or changing Cruisers to be more Role based such as useful Logistics.

Really there is an issue and 1000 different ways to fix it. That was just my 2 Isk
Onictus wrote:

Nope, my folks have been married for 35 years, sorry.

Damn, but it is nice to see a Marriage work out in this day and age.

I think we pretty much argued all of the finer points of this one out. Sorry if I was a kind of a ****.




No worries, gave me something to do during a couple VERY boring lectures, and a worse shift at work.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2011-12-01 13:00:21 UTC
AureoLion wrote:
Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.



Indeed I'm pretty sure if Naga survivies the initial hit from a Tornado it will win a ranged fight on DPS because the Tornado gets a second shot off.