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Making Suicide Ganking a little more Interesting
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#21 - 2014-04-11 21:06:46 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Carebears have their Sec Settings max on Yellow, so as soon as they were kicked from the corp, they wouldn't be able to shoot. If they don't have the settings setup this way or ignore the notification or mail, it's their own fault.


it doesn't matter because this also means that you can kick somebody just before they get engaged by wartargets

there are so many undesirable and stupid consequences resulting from allowing somebody to be kicked when they're still in space

and oh lawdy you think it's hard to convince people to set safeties to red when the goonwaffe recruitment scam has worked for almost a decade


You are posting some unbelievably remote outlier scenario as a common thing.
So let's say a corp gets decc'ed, for whatever reason.
Under my scenario, ONLY the ones that ganked can't leave a corp.
The ones that did not gank could in essence , drop corp seconds before being attacked.
But they had 24 hours ahead of that to drop corp. And secondly, they better have a CEO who is real sharp and instantly available 24/7 to kick them from corp to avoid an attack. The scenario you paint is ridiculous.

And like I said earlier, I am quite happy to concede the thing about CEO's kicking people while still in space can be hived off to a separate suggestion. But one last thing on that point. You don't want people able to be dropped in space, then the same people can't join a corp undocked then.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-04-11 21:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You don't want people able to be dropped in space, then the same people can't join a corp undocked then.


I know what you're referring to (wardeccers running around in an NPC corp and joining back up with their corp just before engaging) but IIRC that's been nerfed for a while

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You are posting some unbelievably remote outlier scenario as a common thing.


kicking somebody shortly before they get engaged by wartargets isn't an outlier, it's nonexistent because that isn't possible

it would become a "common thing" if it became possible to kick corp members while they're still in space

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#23 - 2014-04-11 21:30:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response.


To keep this balanced, what restrictions do you suggest should be imposed on NPC corp members mining, mission running, building, researching, trading, etc?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#24 - 2014-04-11 21:34:21 UTC
Dinsdale, have you tried suicide ganking? I highly suggest you give it a try. Actually turning a reliable profit suicide ganking is quite difficult.



Bacon makes us stronger
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-04-11 22:21:13 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Some simple changes to make gankers have to be a little more steadfast in their pursuit of tears.

1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response. Of course, attacking someone who is red, or has a suspect flag, or defending oneself if engaged, is still allowed.

Or just have them automatically kicked from the NPC corp after the gank and unable to rejoin any NPC corp for a month or longer (because NPCs have standards and don't need troublemakers.)



Yeah, but what corp do they end up in then?

just go ahead and dump them directly into either goons or CODE
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#26 - 2014-04-11 23:08:18 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Dinsdale, have you tried suicide ganking? I highly suggest you give it a try. Actually turning a reliable profit suicide ganking is quite difficult.





If it is difficult to turn a reliable profit suicide ganking, why do it then?
Are you saying that suicide gankers NEED the protection of an NPC corp to make a profit?

I am not bring sarcastic in this case.
Do you mean that suicide ganking is not profitable long term without the shield of an NPC corp?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-04-11 23:14:37 UTC
naah, it should be 'if your in an NPC corp your toggle thingy is permanently set to GREEN'
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2014-04-11 23:18:16 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response.


To keep this balanced, what restrictions do you suggest should be imposed on NPC corp members mining, mission running, building, researching, trading, etc?


1.NPC corps already experience an 11% nerf to any mission running, so that is more than enough "penalty" in that case.
2. Anyone in an NPC corp is going to find that NPC research slots are already hard to come by, and you can't put up your own POS in an NPC corp. When I was doing my T2 mfg, I had to put up a POS to get enough copy slots for even a small operation.
3. Manufacturing slots are more readily available, but we are about to see a huge nerf in them, if Malcanis and the goon mouthpiece got their way with CCP. Further, those NPC slots are available to ALL players, so there should be penalty associated with them just because someone is in an NPC corp.
4. The same logic can be applied to refining at NPC stations. The refining is corporation agnostic. so penalizing NPC corp people breaks that logic.
5. Trading in and of itself is a non corp activity, and given that most traders don't leave station anyway, I just don't see how penalizing them has any bearing.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#29 - 2014-04-11 23:20:15 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
naah, it should be 'if your in an NPC corp your toggle thingy is permanently set to GREEN'


That is a simple and elegant change to the biggest part of the issue.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-04-11 23:43:26 UTC
What's wrong with suicide gankers, who engage in a legitimate style of play, using the same protection that is available to miners?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
PrettyMuch Always Right
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-04-11 23:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: PrettyMuch Always Right
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Some simple changes to make gankers have to be a little more steadfast in their pursuit of tears.

1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response. Of course, attacking someone who is red, or has a suspect flag, or defending oneself if engaged, is still allowed.

2. Anyone who is in a PC corp AND has ganked someone in the past 72 hours cannot jump ship immediately to another corp, or back to an NPC corp, but must wait a week, if that corp is war-decced. Basically, the ganker can't avoid retribution if someone or some group decides they want to fight back. And the corp can't be shut down.

3. If someone steals from a corp, or AWOXes, the CEO can toss them within 24 hours, regardless if the offending player docks up or not.

The one issue with this is that it creates a situation where someone could gank, drawing a war dec, and then suggestion 2 and 3 are in conflict, and the CEO is stuck with a player in their corp who intentionally drew a war dec, and the CEO no recourse.

These changes in no way limit the amount of "fun" gankers can have, as long as they stay in PC corps. But they can no longer hide in an NPC corp. You want to be a tough guy, don't hit someone and run back to momma's skirts.

#3 is reasonable. Don't agree with the rest. You can already counter nearly every gank by properly fitting your ship and scouting about.

I do both multibox mining and multibox ganking; the ganking is waaaaaaaaaaay harder. It's not even close how much more effort goes into it, and the entirety of said efforts can be completely ruined by the person spending 1 minute fitting their ship right or having a single alt in a 600,000 ISK ECM frig on grid.

EDIT: Some good points here countering suggestion #3 of the OP. I'll counter by saying: Allow the CEO to set the player for removal. Once they dock or once DT arrives they are then kicked automatically.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-04-12 00:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
The biggest annoyance with suicide ganking (and wardecs as well) is how annoying they are if you only have 1 account, but how trivial they become to avoid by buying a second account. Use a boxed daredevil to web your freighter into warp, and it can't be ganked. Do your highsec PvE and trading on an NPC corp alt, and you don't need to care about wardecs. It's pay to win in an absolutely extreme form.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-04-12 00:13:59 UTC
I have an alternative proposal.

How about people learn from their losses and figure out what they could have done differently?

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2014-04-12 00:54:43 UTC
Ganking isn't a problem.

Oh, and highsec doesn't need to be more safe. It needs to be considerably less so.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2014-04-12 06:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Richard Desturned wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Carebears have their Sec Settings max on Yellow, so as soon as they were kicked from the corp, they wouldn't be able to shoot. If they don't have the settings setup this way or ignore the notification or mail, it's their own fault.


it doesn't matter because this also means that you can kick somebody just before they get engaged by wartargets

there are so many undesirable and stupid consequences resulting from allowing somebody to be kicked when they're still in space

and oh lawdy you think it's hard to convince people to set safeties to red when the goonwaffe recruitment scam has worked for almost a decade


Poor wartargets. More griefing in the game and more fraud and danger, isn't that nice? Also more tools available to rogue CEOs to completely screw its employees and make EVE more what it is supposed to be: a rogue, extreme and never-trustworthy place to play in. Should sit well with your lot. Blink

Regarding the scam: As said: their own fault. If people can be tricked so easily or if they are seduced by greed into dangerous acts, they shouldn't be surprised if it fires back.

Richard Desturned wrote:
What's wrong with suicide gankers, who engage in a legitimate style of play, using the same protection that is available to miners?


If in your eyes nothing is wrong with ganking out of NPC corps, can you and all the other player then please stop demanding that miners, mission runners, solo-players and wardec-refugees should leave or not be allowed to stay in NPC corps for a prolonged period of time?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ganking isn't a problem.

Oh, and highsec doesn't need to be more safe. It needs to be considerably less so.


Sure thing, and CCP doesn't even need to change something on the game, because what you ask for already exists. Can you guess what it is called?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#36 - 2014-04-12 08:03:07 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Some simple changes to make gankers have to be a little more steadfast in their pursuit of tears.

1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response. Of course, attacking someone who is red, or has a suspect flag, or defending oneself if engaged, is still allowed.

2. Anyone who is in a PC corp AND has ganked someone in the past 72 hours cannot jump ship immediately to another corp, or back to an NPC corp, but must wait a week, if that corp is war-decced. Basically, the ganker can't avoid retribution if someone or some group decides they want to fight back. And the corp can't be shut down.

3. If someone steals from a corp, or AWOXes, the CEO can toss them within 24 hours, regardless if the offending player docks up or not.

The one issue with this is that it creates a situation where someone could gank, drawing a war dec, and then suggestion 2 and 3 are in conflict, and the CEO is stuck with a player in their corp who intentionally drew a war dec, and the CEO no recourse.

These changes in no way limit the amount of "fun" gankers can have, as long as they stay in PC corps. But they can no longer hide in an NPC corp. You want to be a tough guy, don't hit someone and run back to momma's skirts.


Your reputation grows daily as someone who consistently has bad ideas.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#37 - 2014-04-12 08:11:27 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Some simple changes to make gankers have to be a little more steadfast in their pursuit of tears.

1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response. Of course, attacking someone who is red, or has a suspect flag, or defending oneself if engaged, is still allowed.

2. Anyone who is in a PC corp AND has ganked someone in the past 72 hours cannot jump ship immediately to another corp, or back to an NPC corp, but must wait a week, if that corp is war-decced. Basically, the ganker can't avoid retribution if someone or some group decides they want to fight back. And the corp can't be shut down.

3. If someone steals from a corp, or AWOXes, the CEO can toss them within 24 hours, regardless if the offending player docks up or not.

The one issue with this is that it creates a situation where someone could gank, drawing a war dec, and then suggestion 2 and 3 are in conflict, and the CEO is stuck with a player in their corp who intentionally drew a war dec, and the CEO no recourse.

These changes in no way limit the amount of "fun" gankers can have, as long as they stay in PC corps. But they can no longer hide in an NPC corp. You want to be a tough guy, don't hit someone and run back to momma's skirts.


Your reputation grows daily as someone who consistently has bad ideas.


Somehow, I don't think I am hurt by your insult.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#38 - 2014-04-12 09:24:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Poor wartargets. More griefing...


If you think it meets CCP's definition of griefing, which is the only definition that matters in this game, file a support ticket. Griefing quite rightly gets you in hot water with the GMs.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Bert Ward
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-04-12 09:52:18 UTC
Well, anybody who picks up a container or wreck from a hi-sec gank should have kill rights put on them too.

Just take the hops from Balle to Hek and see all those oblisks and Fenrirs and Vexors constantly parked at the gates?

I got ganked about a month ago an put a small bounty on the player. I get strings and strings of messages about his bounty being collected. It's at a bil, but since he just uses a vexor with cheap fittings, and sentry drones, the most you can get out of him is 10-15 mil.

HE risks very little compared to what he can gain with his cheap fit with Indy hauler alt standing by. Easy, when the guy in the obelisk loots, in corp or not, turn him yellow and put kill rights on him for 30 days too.

Face it, this game encourages people to be jerks. From suicide ganking high value scan rigged ships just for the points on the kill boards and now Concord kill recorded. To jumping your complex anomolie while you have the whole room triggered, kill the gatekeeper and get in the next stage ... trigger the Faction Pirate, kill loot and leave.

Make the deadspace anomoies first in first own, anybody else comes in they go yellow.

Or the jerks that scan the containers in Data and Arch sites, crack one or two cans and leave the junky ones behind. No despawn. You waste your time scanning the site down, warp in only to see a unopened data can that you know only has junk in it.

Like I said. This game is geared towards jerks and the fact that it's even moderately successful is scary.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-04-12 11:03:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Some simple changes to make gankers have to be a little more steadfast in their pursuit of tears.

1. Alter the game mechanics that no one in an NPC corp can engage in an attack that initiates a Concord response. Of course, attacking someone who is red, or has a suspect flag, or defending oneself if engaged, is still allowed.

2. Anyone who is in a PC corp AND has ganked someone in the past 72 hours cannot jump ship immediately to another corp, or back to an NPC corp, but must wait a week, if that corp is war-decced. Basically, the ganker can't avoid retribution if someone or some group decides they want to fight back. And the corp can't be shut down.

3. If someone steals from a corp, or AWOXes, the CEO can toss them within 24 hours, regardless if the offending player docks up or not.

The one issue with this is that it creates a situation where someone could gank, drawing a war dec, and then suggestion 2 and 3 are in conflict, and the CEO is stuck with a player in their corp who intentionally drew a war dec, and the CEO no recourse.

These changes in no way limit the amount of "fun" gankers can have, as long as they stay in PC corps. But they can no longer hide in an NPC corp. You want to be a tough guy, don't hit someone and run back to momma's skirts.


Prehaps we should ban mining and missioning in high sec whilst hiding behind an NPC corps skirts too? Say any player over a month old?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
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