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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#601 - 2014-04-11 18:19:02 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

One does not offer proof to substantiate that he takes issue with something. His opinion is his proof. But anyone who has played EVE longer than a week will recognize the facts in the OP. He will be able to discern with ease where the facts end and the opinion begins.


Quote:
I migrated to EVE from another MMO in January, 2014
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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#602 - 2014-04-11 18:19:18 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

I have never disputed the value of player skill. Nor have I suggested that acquiring the in-game skills was the sum and substance of the matter. But on page 30, it is not surprising that the OP has been twisted or outright forgotten.

I think you kind of do dispute the value of player skill, basing that completetely on your OP.

I think this little bit from your post pretty much sums it up:

Karak Kashada wrote:
What does that mean? It means that, once you get your noob ships and skills, advancing in the game is not a reflexive process at all. Nothing you do in-game will hasten your acquisition of the skills and ships you need to make your bigger EVE dreams a reality. You are stuck in a truly endless training queue. And there is no superlative in that statement—the training queue is endless."


Advancing in this game is completely subjective, therefore your whole statement is an opinion, and all of it is purely your experience.

Can I ask you what were your bigger EVE dreams?

I disagree
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#603 - 2014-04-11 18:19:40 UTC
Back to the OP

Karak Kashada wrote:


At this point, you have discovered EVE's dirty little secret—you don't play EVE to advance toward what you want; you wait for EVE to tell you that you can have what you've wanted since day one. The all-powerful "Requirements" tab is become your brutal and merciless master. And heaven forbid that you should, at any time, change your mind about what you want to be, or what class of ship you want to fly. For you will have to start a great deal of the training marathon over again.


This is the problem a lot of us have with the OP. This is basically saying "hey CCP, you should make it to where my bad choices or changing my mind don't matter".

But the point of EVE is that your choices (and knowledge) DO matter. EVE isn't like other games that swath you in cotton, it's harsh to it's core, costing you the only thing that actually matters in life itself: time.

There is nothing wrong with disliking this and wanting to "just play a game for fun", but you picked the wrong game. It's like the OP desires checkers while sitting at a Chess board.


Quote:

If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannot—and will not—do; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.


That's usually said by people who don't meant to admit that they don't know how to spend their time. Which is why things like Tippia's new player training guide exists (when it shouldn't have to btw).

When i started playing, I rolled on character, then decided I wanted to do something else, so i made another one. I didn't run to the forums exclaiming that EVE wastes my time lol, I took charge of my game play experience and enjoyment.

That's why i say certain people aren't suited to EVE and should rather be playing theme park games that are more forgiving, because it making a mistake in training or changing your mind pisses you off at the game, then the problem isn't the game at all.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#604 - 2014-04-11 18:20:29 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.
This post explains a great deal.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#605 - 2014-04-11 18:23:33 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.
This post explains a great deal.

Indeed it does, but not in the way that you think.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#606 - 2014-04-11 18:23:43 UTC
In most MMOs, even PvP based MMOs, I can accomplish things immediately through use of skill, not a skill queue. The amount a new person in EvE can accomplish is IMHO much less than other games.

Sitting in a skill queue does not make EvE "hard". Being able to endure the skill queue makes EvE easy as SP=gear. Just wait long enough in EvE and you become "better" than people just starting out.

Even Dust doesn't use the EvE formula. There I get SP for sitting around AND for what I do on the battlefield. And I could contribute the second I picked up my first assault rifle because I could use skill as much as gear to succeed.
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#607 - 2014-04-11 18:27:45 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Then what are you doing here? You don't want help, you don't have a solution, you don't care to learn anything new, and you are not interested in adapting to the game.

"Oh I do, it's oulined on the facts on the OP"

No it isn't.

What I am doing right now... on page thirty of this thread... is enjoying getting peoples' panties in knots. I have no objective at this point. But, as you say, the reason I started the thread is, most certainly, explained in the very last line of the OP. Again, I encourage all participants here to read and understand the OP before they post. This includes you, who are still oblivious to the OP.

Thank you for openly admitting that you had no reason for making this post in the first place. The reasoning that you explained in the very last line of the OP is incorrect and biased, based on many wrong assuptions, and therefore invalid. Which leaves me wondering, what are you still doing here?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#608 - 2014-04-11 18:28:28 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
In most MMOs, even PvP based MMOs, I can accomplish things immediately through use of skill, not a skill queue. The amount a new person in EvE can accomplish is IMHO much less than other games.


And we like it that way. if you don't, why are you playing? if you 'need' to accomplish things quickly thought use of skill, why would you choose to play what amounts to a multiplayer strategy game ?

That's what just doesn't make sense to me. If EVE were missing some fundamental thing that i just NEED to enjoy the game, i'd play something else not waste my time hoping some Icleandic game developer changes things to my liking while I hand him 15 bucks a month for years.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#609 - 2014-04-11 18:29:45 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Then what are you doing here? You don't want help, you don't have a solution, you don't care to learn anything new, and you are not interested in adapting to the game.

"Oh I do, it's oulined on the facts on the OP"

No it isn't.

What I am doing right now... on page thirty of this thread... is enjoying getting peoples' panties in knots. I have no objective at this point. But, as you say, the reason I started the thread is, most certainly, explained in the very last line of the OP. Again, I encourage all participants here to read and understand the OP before they post. This includes you, who are still oblivious to the OP.

Thank you for openly admitting that you had no reason for making this post in the first place. The reasoning that you explained in the very last line of the OP is incorrect and biased, based on many wrong assuptions, and therefore invalid. Which leaves me wondering, what are you still doing here?


Yep, he admitted he was trolling lol. It's basically a cop out because he knows he lost.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#610 - 2014-04-11 18:30:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:


And then I tell you you're wrong, and also bring forth the FACT that I'm still playing and will now say have very possibly logged more time in game in the last 3 months than you have in the last 3 months.

Now, you don't know how much I do play and do enjoy EvE. Because you don't know this, whatever conclusion you arrive at regarding my mental suitability for EvE is simply an opinion. And then I tell you that your opinion is wrong, and then you tell me that your opinion is not wrong. The opposite of wrong is right. right = correct, correct = fact. It's not a fact, yet you push it forward like it is.

You're implying you know more about my personal experience with EvE than I do. Such a claim is ignorant and highly egotistical.


You're opener thinking it. Like always.

Your posting suggests you are unhappy with a lot of things. I have yet to see you post anything 'good' about the game. As has been said, if you don't want people to think a certain thing, stop posting in that manner.

Quote:


The LIE comes about when you put forth your OPINION and I tell you that your OPINION is wrong. What grants me the right to correct your OPINION?

The subject matter, a subject I know infinitely better than you, ME.


Then you don't know what a lie is.

Quote:

Here's an example:


Jenna Side's favorite sport is apples. hahahaha apples isn't even a sport. I know right! that's how dumb he is! he's so dumb that his favorite sport is a fruit!

Jenna's retort, "That is an offensive statement. My favorite sport is football".

Me, "No it's not, your favorite sport is apples. I know this because once you posted about apples"

That would be me lying about you, much like you did about me.


i'm sorry, but that idiotic. I posted that you and folks like you seem to not be mentally suited to EVE (which is why you seek to change it). Your posts (including this one) prove that. As you have struggled to play the game (as evidenced by your repeated request for changes to the game to suit you) whereas others of us have not struggled (as evdienced by the fact that we didn't ***** on the forums when we were young), that pretty much supports my assertion.



You don't have to believe it, but i think the game would be better for you if you did. The reason I say this is that once a person realizes that they are the problem instead of some outside thing (like the game itself), they learn to play better and thus have a better time of it. Allowing yourself to believe that "the game is bad and needs changing" when you are a rookie that doesn't know much about the game to begin with is a recipe for failure.

That's why the OP is experiencing so much resistance to his original post.

A smarter player would have realized that EVE isn't like the other MMOs he's used to for good reason and thus he'd need to learn and adapt or quit playing. But he picked option 3: run to the forums and posts a long and incorrect thread about how the game He doesn't really understand is bad. Which he then reinforced by saying "people who like and understand EVE are sellouts to CCP" lol .


Again another post laden with insults stating I'm unintelligent.

I prove you're lying and your only response is "you don't know what a lie is." without proving how it wasn't a lie.

The majority of my grandstanding has been in regards to morality and how people treat each other. The few instances where I addressed the new player experience wasn't necessarily "wrong", just an opinion that you failed to agree with and chose to insult me over instead of acknowledging that I can have a different opinion than yours.

Even your opinion of the OP's post is just that, an opinion. Granted, while you "can" do stuff, the stuff you "can" do might not even be particularly enjoyable for him. Aren't we suppose to research stuff? Research in EvE doesn't stop at the stuff you can do upon day 1. In fact, you're encouraged to pick a long term training path and towards a long term objective. Which means that everything you do from day 1 should be in support of some how supplementing your reaching your long term training goal. In the mean time, since everything you're doing is overshadowed by the "one day" you get to do it, the stuff becomes pale in comparison.

You stating he's "wrong" is not a fact, it's simply yours and others opinion that he's wrong. But he can't be entirely wrong because in the realm of possibility within EvE, there will always be something you can't do, that you might want to do, until you've waited long enough to be able to do it.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#611 - 2014-04-11 18:30:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Back to the OP

Karak Kashada wrote:


At this point, you have discovered EVE's dirty little secret—you don't play EVE to advance toward what you want; you wait for EVE to tell you that you can have what you've wanted since day one. The all-powerful "Requirements" tab is become your brutal and merciless master. And heaven forbid that you should, at any time, change your mind about what you want to be, or what class of ship you want to fly. For you will have to start a great deal of the training marathon over again.


This is the problem a lot of us have with the OP. This is basically saying "hey CCP, you should make it to where my bad choices or changing my mind don't matter".

But the point of EVE is that your choices (and knowledge) DO matter. EVE isn't like other games that swath you in cotton, it's harsh to it's core, costing you the only thing that actually matters in life itself: time.

There is nothing wrong with disliking this and wanting to "just play a game for fun", but you picked the wrong game. It's like the OP desires checkers while sitting at a Chess board.


Quote:

If you are an EVE veteran, I salute you. You have done what I cannot—and will not—do; you have endured the perpetual training cycles required to, at last, land you in the place you wanted to be. My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.


That's usually said by people who don't meant to admit that they don't know how to spend their time. Which is why things like Tippia's new player training guide exists (when it shouldn't have to btw).

When i started playing, I rolled on character, then decided I wanted to do something else, so i made another one. I didn't run to the forums exclaiming that EVE wastes my time lol, I took charge of my game play experience and enjoyment.

That's why i say certain people aren't suited to EVE and should rather be playing theme park games that are more forgiving, because it making a mistake in training or changing your mind pisses you off at the game, then the problem isn't the game at all.


Thanks for a thoughtful response. I agree that EVE is not for me, but not for the reasons you cited. One thing I would point out in your post that resonates is the mention of time. And I was clear in my OP about time. I have no problem with the difficulty and harshness of EVE. That was one of the biggest draws, initially. But I the pilot-progression mechanism simply dissociates from the value of my in-game time to a degree that I find unavoidably dissatisfying. Hence, my post. All these talking heads who are throwing around their suggestions and "help" never grasped the OP in the first place, and are being played like cheap harmonicas. Well, at this point they are. In the beginning it was all straight up (on my part, anyway). But you can only push a person so far.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#612 - 2014-04-11 18:31:38 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.
This post explains a great deal.

Indeed it does, but not in the way that you think.

Oh, yes. Definitely in the way I am thinking. Most definitely.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#613 - 2014-04-11 18:32:42 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.
This post explains a great deal.

Indeed it does, but not in the way that you think.

Oh, yes. Definitely in the way I am thinking. Most definitely.
Keep believing that.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#614 - 2014-04-11 18:33:18 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:


Again another post laden with insults stating I'm unintelligent.


if you are insulted by jens observations, id recommend acting less vile.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#615 - 2014-04-11 18:34:14 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
In most MMOs, even PvP based MMOs, I can accomplish things immediately through use of skill, not a skill queue. The amount a new person in EvE can accomplish is IMHO much less than other games.

Sitting in a skill queue does not make EvE "hard". Being able to endure the skill queue makes EvE easy as SP=gear. Just wait long enough in EvE and you become "better" than people just starting out.

Another player who has the backbone to state the truth. Kudos to you.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#616 - 2014-04-11 18:35:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's where the fact ends, and the opinion begins.
This post explains a great deal.

Indeed it does, but not in the way that you think.

Oh, yes. Definitely in the way I am thinking. Most definitely.
Keep believing that.

I know it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#617 - 2014-04-11 18:35:52 UTC
Fransone wrote:
I have been playing for just over a month now, so not as long as you have. However I am not disillusioned at all, because I knew from day one that it has a 'Wait to Play' aspect to it. And that is perfectly fine.

One of the things that stopped me playing other MMO's like WoW is that there is almost no reward for being a 'veteran'. In games like WoW the only things you can work towards is pure vanity items like mounts, titles or achievements.

Compared to this game where I am ALWAYS improving in some way, and I am ALWAYS progressing towards some goal. Yes, this does take some time to achieve ingame goals, but I much prefer that than having everything handed to me.


You don't even have to wait to play at all.

The SECOND I met a good corp who took me I was already valuable. All it takes it to be able to fit 1 warp scrambler on a frigate, I bet it does not take 200 days to do that, am I rite?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#618 - 2014-04-11 18:37:19 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:


Thanks for a thoughtful response. I agree that EVE is not for me, but not for the reasons you cited. One thing I would point out in your post that resonates is the mention of time. And I was clear in my OP about time. I have no problem with the difficulty and harshness of EVE. That was one of the biggest draws, initially. But I the pilot-progression mechanism simply dissociates from the value of my in-game time to a degree that I find unavoidably dissatisfying. Hence, my post. All these talking heads who are throwing around their suggestions and "help" never grasped the OP in the first place, and are being played like cheap harmonicas. Well, at this point they are. In the beginning it was all straight up (on my part, anyway). But you can only push a person so far.


I bolded the important part. That's what I've been saying. You aren't the type to enjoy EVE, yet you spent the time to make a trash post about it as if it were all EVE's fault that you aren't the type to enjoy it. Thus the reaction to your OP.

I knew what EVE was about and some of how it worked before I downloaded it. I didn't come to it thinking "it's an mmo , I've played MMOs, thus I can play and enjoy EVE" as it seems you did. You've wasted 4 months of your time by not doing your research, then wasted even more time with this post.

I offer this sincerely: If you're smart you do some soul searching, asking yourself why that happened to you and putting the blame squarely where it belongs, on you. That way, you won't waste your time in the future on games that go against your entertainment needs and wants.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#619 - 2014-04-11 18:40:07 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:


Again another post laden with insults stating I'm unintelligent.


if you are insulted by jens observations, id recommend acting less vile.


You don't see me jumping into threads he's posting in, unprovoked insulting him, lying about him.

His choice to engage with me in this thread was his choice, not mine. I made a comment about people feeling it's their right to dictate who does and doesn't play, and he took it as his cue to launch into his smear campaign trying to discredit me bandying his opinions as facts. Whatever "vile"ness I've put out was merely a direct response to what I encountered from him.

Am I weak for dropping to his level? Sure, I'm not perfect. Does it make his statements any less wrong? Nope.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#620 - 2014-04-11 18:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Karak Kashada wrote:
I know it.
Please do enlighten me. I wrote it, I know exactly what I meant, so please do tell.

What you mean to say is that in your opinion what I wrote means something, whereas in my opinion it means something completely different.
Everything you wrote after "I migrated to EVE from another MMO in January, 2014" is opinion, your opinion.

For example I say that I know that Ford products suck and that GM products rock, others say that they know different. Do you see how it works now?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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