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When Rebalancing Dreads, Use The Phoenix As A Template
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masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-04-09 18:58:56 UTC
The Phoenix is probably the most under appreciated dread. This is due to it being absolutely mediocre in all respects. You can't fit it as a blap dread (easily), it has damage application problems, it carries the terrible Caldari kinetic missile damage bonus (why are Caldari so good at Kinetic missiles? Kinetic is probably the worst overall damage type you can select), etc.

Really, it is pretty mediocre. Even the weapon system, capital missiles, is terrible. However, it does the original job of a dread: Attacking large stationary objects and other capital ships.

In that sense, it is the purest dread. And therefore it is the baseline to compare all other dreads to in a re-balance. I don't think the Phoenix needs a buff, I think it's perfect for its role. However, all other dreads need nerfs to bring them down to the level of the Phoenix. This would balance dreads into their correct role as siege platforms instead of big battleships.

It's also cosmic justice, since the Phoenix was made fun of for being a big Drake for so many yearsBig smile

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-04-09 19:47:26 UTC
Suddenly, nobody uses dreads anymore!

Not like anybody does, anyway. It's all archons, archons, and archons.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#3 - 2014-04-09 19:50:26 UTC
Why do people insist on trying to change my favorite scan ship? Leave the phoenix alone so I can scan in it in peace.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#4 - 2014-04-09 19:57:23 UTC
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-04-09 20:01:47 UTC
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-04-09 20:25:25 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-04-09 21:41:31 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.


No, it really can't. A titan can move at full speed to negate over half the Phoenix's damage application.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-04-09 21:44:11 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.


No, it really can't. A titan can move at full speed to negate over half the Phoenix's damage application.


Which is why nobody likes the Phoenix, and why it needs to be the baseline for any rebalance.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-04-09 22:10:06 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:

Which is why nobody likes the Phoenix, and why it needs to be the baseline for any rebalance.


"nobody seems to enjoy this, lets balance everything around it!"

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Natassia Krasnoo
R3D SHIFT
#10 - 2014-04-09 22:39:33 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.


No, it really can't. A titan can move at full speed to negate over half the Phoenix's damage application.


Which is why nobody likes the Phoenix, and why it needs to be the baseline for any rebalance.


So wait...you want to turn every dread into a worthless waste of minerals? The Phoenix has some very large issues. I have no idea if you've ever used one, but applying damage to ANYTHING that moves with a Phoenix is like trying to bend a spoon using just your ESP.
What you're suggesting would leave Supers and Titans as the only counter to Supers and Titans. Just not a good idea at all...not at all!
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-04-09 22:50:14 UTC
Didn't you see that twitch VOD where that phoenix just sat there on the undock and blapped 7-8 ships with no fucks given?

You people just don't know how to use it correctly.

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager
Canthan Rogue
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-04-09 22:53:12 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.


No, it really can't. A titan can move at full speed to negate over half the Phoenix's damage application.


Umm no it can't. A titan's huge sig radius means it will take full damage from a Phoenix, even if it's moving faster than the explosion velocity. Carriers however, can speed tank the Phoenix.
Uthreignish
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#13 - 2014-04-11 12:52:27 UTC
Phoenix is **** so let's make every other dread **** as well.
trevormax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-04-11 13:58:54 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
Didn't you see that twitch VOD where that phoenix just sat there on the undock and blapped 7-8 ships with no fucks given?

You people just don't know how to use it correctly.


Indeed that was pretty nice to see. I'm betting the cane and eagle pilot weren't expecting to just insta-pop like that. I had a look to see it again but that vid seems to have vanished.
Budrick3
Moira.
#15 - 2014-04-11 14:29:01 UTC
Bernie Nator wrote:
Why do people insist on trying to change my favorite scan ship? Leave the phoenix alone so I can scan in it in peace.


i lul at this....really made my day.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2014-04-11 15:16:34 UTC
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#17 - 2014-04-11 17:21:16 UTC
Just get rid of 90% webs, no need to nerf dreads.

JUSTK is recruiting
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-04-11 17:50:18 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Respectfully disagree? Though, I can see your points - what reason is there to get into a dread under that model other than to structure grind?


Capital ship fights. Nuking dreads, carriers, titans, etc.

IDGAD wrote:
Dreads are designed to do more than structure grind. They are also designed to be a counter against supers. a 100 man dread fleet can kill a titan every 30 seconds which is about the ONLY way to counter super fleets besides dropping twice the amount of supers on the field as the opponents.


I'm sure a Phoenix can do that too.


No, it really can't. A titan can move at full speed to negate over half the Phoenix's damage application.


This is not possible.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#19 - 2014-04-11 17:53:47 UTC
its also good as platform for capital tractor beams

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-04-11 18:18:28 UTC
trevormax wrote:
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
Didn't you see that twitch VOD where that phoenix just sat there on the undock and blapped 7-8 ships with no fucks given?

You people just don't know how to use it correctly.


Indeed that was pretty nice to see. I'm betting the cane and eagle pilot weren't expecting to just insta-pop like that. I had a look to see it again but that vid seems to have vanished.


Vid is taken down because Lord's is entering it into the One Man Crew video contest. It will be back.


As for the Phoenix being bad, it actually applies the highest volley damage to subcaps making it the *best* blap dread according to a friend of mine who flies it (the guy who made the video) but this is more a case of "everyone says its bad so without actually looking into it I will also say it is bad".

I imagine as the solo blap Phoenix video gets around we'll see a lot more Phoenixes in the next year. If anything the Rev is the dread that really needs help
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