EVE General Discussion

Posting from a Recall account, because I can, apparently. Oh don't look at me that way, I know most of you have a forum alt.

I was originally going to post this to a recent 27 page thread, but that thread has since been locked. I'm quite aware that creating a thread about a locked thread is likely to get this thread locked as well, but so be it.

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I've been playing Eve off and on since about 2006 (possibly even earlier, I'm not sure). Back in the day we had quite a problem with botting (referred to as macromining), and the result was the formation of the "United Corporations Against Macros" alliance. I guess you could consider them as the yesteryear CODE, except we had no interest in ganking AFK miners. Only botters. No ransoms or other forms bribery were ever accepted or requested during its operation.

So 2009 rolls around and CCP does a large-scale purging of bot accounts. Normally you would think that was a time to rejoice, but a few weeks later and you could see the bot herders clawing back, creating new accounts and devising new strageties to keep themselves under the radar. Reporting them would fill your petition queue, and most of the time all you would get back is "thanks, we'll take care of it" or "our logs see nothing", then see the same bots operating for months on end.

Fast forward to Fanfest 2012 and 2013, where CCP Security discusses of how the anti-botting / anti-RMT team works. The Security team only consists of a handful of members, and most of them are already assigned other tasks. Pelligro got sick for 3 months, and bans dropped from 2500/month to under 1000/month, only to barely bounce back in the beginning of 2013.

Since my return to Eve in November 2013, I have seen approximately 100 bots. Using the new "report bot" functionality seemed fruitless, and filing petitions manually resulted in "use report bot". These same bots no longer operate in the constellation I operate in, because I bumped and outed them quite vocally in local chat. They don't talk in local, they don't allow chat or duel requests. They don't log in 23/7 because they know that paints them with one big bullseye. Most bot herders know to move if their presence is detected. These bots still operate upwards of 18 hours a day.

I must say that I am relieved that CCP is taking a continued stance towards botting, however between current bot techniques and isboxer, not much has changed for farming of minerals (or bounty/loot for the case of mission botters).

Do I think CCP should disallow multiboxing? No, not at all. However, I feel that if you're going to be playing the game, you should be the one performing the actions, not some silly program where you can click once and an army of alts does your bidding.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any different than botting from days of olde. From my point of view, I see 20 "players" with jibberish names, all flying Mackinaws, all in the same belt, who all warp simultaneously if bumped (or if they see someone else in the belt), who all log in and out simultaneously at various times of the day as if to not look obvious -- it's not hard to guess that they're a bot fleet.

You may think of a bot as automated, but there's usually someone pulling the strings close by. A bot herd without a herder is a dead herd because if/when a GM goes and convoes one and sees activity but no response to chat, they're likely to get banned manually (providing the GM decides to take action, which they usually don't).

A couple times since I've come back to Eve, I've wondered why I even bother trying to achieve anything in New Eden, because why should I spend weeks/months grinding to achieve what a bot/isboxer can achieve in hours/days? I try to look past it when they're not in the area that I'm operating in, but every so often, you'll see one floating around looking for a new home. Just this evening, I saw a group of 8 similarly-named characters simul-warp into my dead-end system for 10 minutes and then leave. I didn't get a chance to see what ships they were flying, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were a mission isboxer fleet looking for a place to farm.

Now I don't have anything against multiboxers, per-se, a former corp-mate of mine had 4 accounts: 2 miners, an Orca pilot, and a refiner/Charon pilot. He alt-tabs between each of his characters one at a time, and I believe that should be the way it should remain. Regardless of whether isboxer requires input or not, one click to save seconds of alt-tabbing and clicking gives an unfair advantage to those people who either can't react fast enough to do so reasonably, or those who don't have computers (or money to buy computer(s)) sufficient enough to multibox.

From my point of view, isboxing is no different than the Chinese macrominers from years ago. Maybe it's time players take a stand and start shooting every isboxer they see.

normally I wouldn't edit my post to change what it says but.....


/sigh

if you see someone you think is botting, file a petition and let CCP handle it.

If you had bothered to do a search, instead of just wanting to cause drama, you would find that CCP has already stated that ISBoxer is allowed.

I do not agree about ISboxing being the "same" as using macro's. It takes a person on the keyboard like you mentioned.

Fortunately for me your post is mature and allows a different opinion.

I do agree that certain players manage to take it to a whole new level (as in your example with the Mackinaws). That may create problems for more "normal" players with 1 to 4 accounts.

Thanks for the kind words, but I suspect this thread won't last very long. It's the nature of EOF, sadly. But I wanted to speak my piece, and since the other thread was closed while writing my wall-o-text, my only choices were to go unheard, or create a new thread.



We could debate the effects for ages, but in my opinion, botting creates a situation where resources are incorrectly distributed throughout New Eden, which is unfair to not only high-sec players, but null-sec players as well, whether it be 20 Mackinaws or 20 Dominixes.

The way I see it, it is consistent.
CCP allows ISBoxer (which requires manual input for each action, regardless of how many client that action hits)
CCP does not allow bots (which allow multiple actions from a single input, which monitor and change without need for further input)

I think the issue you are having here is that you are assuming someone is a bot, reporting them and they turn out not to be, or CCP is unable to find enough evidence to suggest that are. I know you list a whole bunch of things that you think means bots, but those also apply to legitimate players. Even without ISBoxer, If I'm running a mining fleet, they will all decline dual requests and messages and I'll not respond to a thing in local. I'll also use fleet warp almost exclusively.

I use ISBoxer to run small stealth bomber squad but it's main function for me is scouting.

I can be ratting in a system with a scout in each adjacent system with their local and overview on my main screen while keeping an eye on my stealth bomber squad staking out the guys I'm camping 10 systems away.

What it does is simplify screen and PC management. I can do it on 2 PCs instead of 10. Would I prefer it was banned. Maybe but it's not and likely won't be.

I agree. If you're going to strip an ice field with 20 characters you should have to do 20 times the clicking. I can't think of other scenarios where we get to use third-party tools to actually affect the client, except maybe keyboard macro keys.

Will this get implemented? I wouldn't hold my breath, because a person with 20 accounts probably isn't paying a monthly subscription, but rather putting 20 PLEX into the economy each month. But maybe.



Well for one I don't know how many people's machines could handle that many clients. I imagine a lot of people play on laptops. And before someone argues "buy a better PC", that's just pay-to-win on a whole different level.

Ice field stripping manually is like super super easy. It's slightly more efficient than ISBoxer too, since you don't have rock depletion issues as much. The biggest benefit to isboxer is managing screens.

And no, since CCP have deemed ISBoxer as fine (because they've taken the time to understand how it works rather than assuming), if they were to drop it out now thousands of account would drop. Whether they pay with plex or by paying for a sub makes no real difference for CCPs bottoms line. Either way they get paid.

Which is yet another reason to not want bots. I'm not saying bots shouldn't be banned, I'm saying ISBoxer is not botting which is why it's not banned, and you aren't some all seeing oracle that can accurately separate the two. CCP should (and do) ban bots.

Can I introduce you to this alliance that actively fights against bot aspirancy for a beter highsec?