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log on traps
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Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#21 - 2014-04-08 18:48:58 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Crakachunky wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
You really should try to think about things from all angles before suggesting them here. Otherwise your thread just dies, and no one cares. Also, I would suggest making a forum alt. :D


the other angle(s) is(are) ?
thread didn't die=win?
you cared enough to post
people complain about forum alts stop trying to create a paradox

Forum alts just protect you from getting called out like you did, that is all. The other angles have been presented but here is a short recap:
1. DC in combat, your ship is flagged and will not leave space, but now you have to wait another 30 sec. to get back so why even log in?
2. log in traps: you see them 30 sec's before they log in so jump to were they were (assuming you know, or scan it down in 5 seconds with combat probes) and gank them when they are still getting there bearings.
3. makes life easier for Awoxxers as you cant do anything for another 30 seconds. In short giving them 30 seconds longer to log in after down time.If you want any more reasons why this would not work and is not a good idea, please read the posts you are getting. :D


1. already answered to that read thread
2. what if your already in warp?
3. if the awoxer is in space then either a) log in at the same time (same thing as now) or b) log in from station where there is no timer applied (i.e. read thread)
as far as who I post on, either way I'm targeted personally rather than the issue itself being de-constructed

Quote:
If you want any more reasons why this would not work and is not a good idea, please read the posts you are getting. :D


your calling me out for not reading a thread where I've answered every reply? how about you go read
El Space Mariachi
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#22 - 2014-04-08 19:01:23 UTC
Crakachunky wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
Crakachunky wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
You really should try to think about things from all angles before suggesting them here. Otherwise your thread just dies, and no one cares. Also, I would suggest making a forum alt. :D


the other angle(s) is(are) ?
thread didn't die=win?
you cared enough to post
people complain about forum alts stop trying to create a paradox

Forum alts just protect you from getting called out like you did, that is all. The other angles have been presented but here is a short recap:
1. DC in combat, your ship is flagged and will not leave space, but now you have to wait another 30 sec. to get back so why even log in?
2. log in traps: you see them 30 sec's before they log in so jump to were they were (assuming you know, or scan it down in 5 seconds with combat probes) and gank them when they are still getting there bearings.
3. makes life easier for Awoxxers as you cant do anything for another 30 seconds. In short giving them 30 seconds longer to log in after down time.If you want any more reasons why this would not work and is not a good idea, please read the posts you are getting. :D


1. already answered to that read thread
2. what if your already in warp?
3. if the awoxer is in space then either a) log in at the same time (same thing as now) or b) log in from station where there is no timer applied (i.e. read thread)
as far as who I post on, either way I'm targeted personally rather than the issue itself being de-constructed

Quote:
If you want any more reasons why this would not work and is not a good idea, please read the posts you are getting. :D


your calling me out for not reading a thread where I've answered every reply? how about you go read


same

gay gamers for jesus
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#23 - 2014-04-08 20:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Crakachunky wrote:
on the actual point I raised fair cop on people DC'ing and logging back in, on that note it is a bad idea, does anyone else have better suggestions?

logging in is hardly effort for a kill and doesn't afford the unlucky guy to get trapped much in the way of tactical choice

OK, being more serious for a moment. I concur that leaving the game in order to play the game is not the result of good mechanics. It is bad.

The problem lies in the perfection of local intel (at least in null) so putting a delay on local would do the job. Until everybody starts spamming dscan to compensate as they do in wormholes. So delay dscan!

It boils down to the search for a counter to the counter of perfect intel. Can't do much about it I'm afraid.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-04-08 22:11:31 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Crakachunky wrote:
on the actual point I raised fair cop on people DC'ing and logging back in, on that note it is a bad idea, does anyone else have better suggestions?

logging in is hardly effort for a kill and doesn't afford the unlucky guy to get trapped much in the way of tactical choice

OK, being more serious for a moment. I concur that leaving the game in order to play the game is not the result of good mechanics. It is bad.

The problem lies in the perfection of local intel (at least in null) so putting a delay on local would do the job. Until everybody starts spamming dscan to compensate as they do in wormholes. So delay dscan!

It boils down to the search for a counter to the counter of perfect intel. Can't do much about it I'm afraid.


Fair comment.
I agree hot drops and log in traps are cheesy but how else can we catch people that warp to a POS as soon as a neut enters local. It is the same reason we have to do that cloaky camping rubbish. It isn't especially fun but when you want to harrass a null entity much larger than you and they can see the moment you enter local our tactics are limited to these things.
A delayed local (maybe by a much as a minute) would see log off traps, much cloaky camping and hot drops diminish sharply as we could catch people more easily by conventional means. This could be countered by scouts ofc but then if people are taking the trouble to place scouts they should be rewarded with greater safety.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2014-04-09 00:41:40 UTC
confirming, local encourages those who can adapt to use tactics that those who cannot adapt dnt like.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#26 - 2014-04-09 07:09:26 UTC
Different idea to OP, how about log in space (not including inside a POS) will land you anywhere with a 250Km radius of where you logged out, instead of the current 1.5Km to 2.5Km?
Might give the chance of shaking off/killing the tackler before they get to you. May even land them in the next grid :) Which might actually help the guys that got DC'd in Combat... So may have to give an exception to people that log off with an aggression timer and log back in when the aggression timer is still active to use the current mechanic, otherwise they might get away for free :)
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-04-09 07:09:51 UTC
Crakachunky wrote:
30 second log off delay already in-place, 30 second log in delay (but appear in local) if already in space?


-FA- plz...

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#28 - 2014-04-10 20:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Crakachunky
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Crakachunky wrote:
on the actual point I raised fair cop on people DC'ing and logging back in, on that note it is a bad idea, does anyone else have better suggestions?

logging in is hardly effort for a kill and doesn't afford the unlucky guy to get trapped much in the way of tactical choice

OK, being more serious for a moment. I concur that leaving the game in order to play the game is not the result of good mechanics. It is bad.

The problem lies in the perfection of local intel (at least in null) so putting a delay on local would do the job. Until everybody starts spamming dscan to compensate as they do in wormholes. So delay dscan!

It boils down to the search for a counter to the counter of perfect intel. Can't do much about it I'm afraid.


Fair comment.
I agree hot drops and log in traps are cheesy but how else can we catch people that warp to a POS as soon as a neut enters local. It is the same reason we have to do that cloaky camping rubbish. It isn't especially fun but when you want to harrass a null entity much larger than you and they can see the moment you enter local our tactics are limited to these things.
A delayed local (maybe by a much as a minute) would see log off traps, much cloaky camping and hot drops diminish sharply as we could catch people more easily by conventional means. This could be countered by scouts ofc but then if people are taking the trouble to place scouts they should be rewarded with greater safety.


people who watch local actively and constantly should not be easy to catch, getting bogged down in the girt of the subject: no effort intel forces pvp types to resort to no effort tactics that much I can see as well

but a change in the log in mechanics to deter log in traps should not be tied to a change in "local intel" otherwise nothing will ever get done

again I state, people who are active should not be caught, fly interceptors and catch idiot carriers (because they are not intended ratters) that can't align fast enough everything else should be down to whether the pilot is paying enough attention to his own safety

edit: hot drops are cool I like those, but even that needs a change in cloaky mechanics, no one should be able to be an effective influence on other players whilst not actually playing
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#29 - 2014-04-10 20:28:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
confirming, local encourages those who can adapt to use tactics that those who cannot adapt dnt like.


who's encouraged?
what tactics?
who's not adapting?
and how should they be adapting?
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#30 - 2014-04-10 20:29:50 UTC
Luwc wrote:
Crakachunky wrote:
30 second log off delay already in-place, 30 second log in delay (but appear in local) if already in space?


-FA- plz...


at least you've heard of us
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#31 - 2014-04-10 20:37:34 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Different idea to OP, how about log in space (not including inside a POS) will land you anywhere with a 250Km radius of where you logged out, instead of the current 1.5Km to 2.5Km?
Might give the chance of shaking off/killing the tackler before they get to you. May even land them in the next grid :) Which might actually help the guys that got DC'd in Combat... So may have to give an exception to people that log off with an aggression timer and log back in when the aggression timer is still active to use the current mechanic, otherwise they might get away for free :)


I'm not sure it's good to punish DC'ers now that that's been pointed out, maybe a multi-warp (instead of the current singular) log in procedure along random vectors to delay people from heading directly to there log off point but still puts them in space while logging in for a considerable amount of extra time?
Scorpion Venom1
Molestation Nation.
#32 - 2014-04-11 00:48:24 UTC
Agondray wrote:
Purpose log off traps is or was bannable, I remember hearing several groups of people that have been banned in my time by having a scout and the fleet staring at their character screen waiting to click and blap the guy the scout tackled or stuck in a bubble.





completely wrong;
2) Loggoffski/loggonski
Not an exploit at all, and never has been. We won’t punish people for logging out of and into the game (even if they happen to log in all at about the same time and location that happens to be inconvenient for you).

not trying to bash on you, just trying to fix a misconception


source : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249


i keep it bookmarked since its quite handy
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#33 - 2014-04-11 03:12:57 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:

Fair comment.


Not really. There is a disturbing trend among some people to try and link local to everything from cloaking to cupcakes because they get frustrated that ships designed to use evasion as their primary defense can actually use evasion as their primary defense in areas where a great many people have spent a great deal of time and effort keeping a given area of space clear.


Silvetica Dian wrote:
I agree hot drops and log in traps are cheesy but how else can we catch people that warp to a POS as soon as a neut enters local. It is the same reason we have to do that cloaky camping rubbish. It isn't especially fun but when you want to harrass a null entity much larger than you and they can see the moment you enter local our tactics are limited to these things.
A delayed local (maybe by a much as a minute) would see log off traps, much cloaky camping and hot drops diminish sharply as we could catch people more easily by conventional means. This could be countered by scouts ofc but then if people are taking the trouble to place scouts they should be rewarded with greater safety.


You want to harass them, presumably by disrupting their isk and resource generating PvE activities. Why do you need to 'catch' them. You achieved your goal the second they ran. So long as you remain, they continue to not PvE. Certainly catching them would inflict even more damage on them, but you are already inflicting losses on them every second you prevent them from engaging in PvE.

Local is balanced as is. It isn't some magical protective shield, the pilots that use it to evade are active and attentive, simply flying intelligently as they go about their business. Local does nothing automatically but provide the info needed to make a decision- go or stay. For most PvE ships, that answer is go, but that is up to the pilot to decide. PvE ships do not owe you kills simply because you logged in with a desire to kill them.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#34 - 2014-04-11 04:22:28 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Local is balanced as is.

No it isn't.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It isn't some magical protective shield

Yes, it is.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#35 - 2014-04-11 05:32:16 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Local is balanced as is.

No it isn't.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It isn't some magical protective shield

Yes, it is.


Well reasoned.

Tell me more how local protects you when people die in high sec from ganks every day. If local were a shield, that would not happen.
Jallukola
#36 - 2014-04-11 05:59:36 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Also, I would suggest making a forum alt. :D

Forum alts are for scared and afraid people, too stupid to to keep away from trivial B-grade smacktalks and "trolling" that died as a practice in 2007, when the level of such activity plummeted resulting 12 year olds thinking opposing opinion counts as such.

All posts and mails screencapped and time stamped, including out of EVE, you will not reverse on me.

Might come in handy!
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#37 - 2014-04-11 06:33:56 UTC
Crakachunky wrote:

logging in is hardly effort for a kill and doesn't afford the unlucky guy to get trapped much in the way of tactical choice


actually it's pretty good effort in order to catch squirrely people who wouldn't budge from station or a pos when there's even a slight sniff of danger in the air.

But being FA you wouldn't know what fishing is like anyway.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#38 - 2014-04-11 08:22:37 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Local is balanced as is.

No it isn't.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It isn't some magical protective shield

Yes, it is.


Well reasoned.

Tell me more how local protects you when people die in high sec from ganks every day. If local were a shield, that would not happen.

Yes, I confess it wasn't well reasoned. I was demonstrating how easy it is to make unfounded claims on topics.

The context of this thread has been nullsec where OP lost his Proteus. Sure, local isn't as much help in highsec unless you are at war. In nullsec, it is a perfect warning system which hugely benefits to defender even against something which should be an enormous tactical advantage like appearing through an unexpected wormhole.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#39 - 2014-04-11 10:10:35 UTC
But surely the residents that keep space clear and keep themselves aware deserve to benefit from their alliances efforts.

Local simply enables a choice, one that must be there so long as ships are designed with evasion as their primary defense.

OP's situation is unfortunate, and he isnt wholly wrong- its just not something that can be fixed the way he wants.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-04-11 10:22:12 UTC
First page is full of trolls who think having to log out of the game to catch targets is a good mechanic. Please get back under your bridge.