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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2014-04-10 23:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Karak Kashada wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
the things you can't do are essentially eve's endgame content
If you call "holding your own in a PvP engagement in low-sec with a pilot flying the same ship as you," endgame, then I agree.
You're in luck then, because it is in fact possible to do just that with a very new character.

Quote:
The reality is that, of two pilots flying the same ship in such an engagement, the one who has 6 months of mod and weapons skills trained will wipe the pilot with a week's worth of the same skills trained, in spite of the fact that the latter can "jump into the ship in just a few minutes (or even hours) from beginning to play).
No, that is not the reality. The reality is that the player who has 6 months of experience with the games and mechanics will wipe the floor with the one who does not. You see this every day with new players who think that they can buy their way past the perceived SP barriers, and who end up getting slapped silly by more experienced players with lower-SP characters in less capable ships.

The difference is still time, mind you, but not the kind you're complaining about. In fact, it's the difference in time you've chosen to enforce on yourself by waiting for skills to complete rather than put in the time required to learn how the game works.

Quote:
Exactly. And that is why I am left feeling that my in-game time is not valued by CCP. For their game is structured to reward the best ships and mods on the basis of... nothing.
That's because ships and mods are not rewards (and the best ones have fairly low skill requirements anyway). Your in-game time is rewarded by gameplay experience — the thing that really lets you beat the snot out of less experienced opponents. If you don't value the time you and other players put in, then that's your problem, not CCP's.

Quote:
My comment should be viewed in the context of how CCP has built the pilot-advancement mechanism, not in how players have been able to side-step it.
Your comment isn't exactly accurate in either of the contexts, though.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#122 - 2014-04-10 23:15:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That's because ships and mods are not rewards (and the best ones have fairly low skill requirements anyway). Your in-game time is rewarded by gameplay experience — the thing that really lets you beat the snot out of less experienced opponents. If you don't value the time you and other players put in, then that's your problem, not CCP's.


The journey is the reward
-- Taoist Proverb

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#123 - 2014-04-10 23:15:39 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:

Exactly. And that is why I am left feeling that my in-game time is not valued by CCP. For their game is structured to reward the best ships and mods on the basis of... nothing. Well, other than your real-world money. For you can buy the game and not play it for a year, spend a little cash on PLEX to convert to ISK, and... viola!... you got "the best" ship out there for no in-game investment. And no amount of in-game effort will affect that timetable. Wow. Can it get any clearer?


And you will get owned in your pimped out ship and get made fun of on EVENews24 and The Mittani. But then you might learn SP is not equal to skill.

You keep saying that you aren't wanting everything right now, but all your posts scream "I Want It Now!"

No, they do not. They scream—if they scream at all—"Make my in-game time worth something!"

And, for the record, no matter how many posters attempt to cram this "I want it now" nonsense down my throat, it will continue to be a strawman argument. Not once have I clamored for anything "right now." I will be happy to see the same amount of time pass before I can pilot a certain ship or fit a certain mod. I simply am not amenable to the mechanism CCP has built.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#124 - 2014-04-10 23:17:47 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
If you call "holding your own in a PvP engagement in low-sec with a pilot flying the same ship as you," endgame, then I agree.

You don't loose to a 6 year vet because of SP. You loose because of practical know-how, he has it, you don't. In eve, especially in solo play there are a lot of little tricks and tactics that can add up to a big advantage. 6 years is a long time time to learn those little tidbits.

That is why you loose in lowsec. It's a difficult thing to overcome. If you join the appropriate corp, you can pickup those tidbits a lot faster.

Look at this thread, you're not getting trolled to **** (like people are in most other threads). The people here are actually trying to help you, all you have to do is listen.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#125 - 2014-04-10 23:18:02 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So I have to ask. Your stuff...can I have it?
Ha! That is awesome. You are a true opportunist. I will defer making a decision on this, however, until I have a chance to discuss with my my boy how badly he wants to keep playing. If he wants to stick around, I will do so for him. Otherwise you can have my stuff.

Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
Rewards for that time spent in EVE waiting on that skill to finish are self serving IMHO. Yes EVE does take time for some things. There is a ton you can do with low skilled pilots also, you just have to find what you like and get with a like minded group. Solo EVE is not conducive to fun.

Good points. I agree. And, aside from the other things I said in the OP, since I'm a solo player, EVE has nothing substantial to offer me.


It is a FREAKING MMO, what did you expect.

Want to play alone, pick a single player game.

You wont be missed...Huh? Who was it agaun that left.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#126 - 2014-04-10 23:20:58 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Tippia wrote:
That's because ships and mods are not rewards (and the best ones have fairly low skill requirements anyway). Your in-game time is rewarded by gameplay experience — the thing that really lets you beat the snot out of less experienced opponents. If you don't value the time you and other players put in, then that's your problem, not CCP's.


The journey is the reward
-- Taoist Proverb
I'm sorry. I just don't find waiting for skills to train to be much of a journey. And if "the journey" is busying myself with things I'd rather not do while my skills train—all the "other stuff" EVE offers while you wait—yeah, this just isn't the game for me. I have no problem with that.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#127 - 2014-04-10 23:21:48 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:

Exactly. And that is why I am left feeling that my in-game time is not valued by CCP. For their game is structured to reward the best ships and mods on the basis of... nothing. Well, other than your real-world money. For you can buy the game and not play it for a year, spend a little cash on PLEX to convert to ISK, and... viola!... you got "the best" ship out there for no in-game investment. And no amount of in-game effort will affect that timetable. Wow. Can it get any clearer?


And you will get owned in your pimped out ship and get made fun of on EVENews24 and The Mittani. But then you might learn SP is not equal to skill.

You keep saying that you aren't wanting everything right now, but all your posts scream "I Want It Now!"

No, they do not. They scream—if they scream at all—"Make my in-game time worth something!"

And, for the record, no matter how many posters attempt to cram this "I want it now" nonsense down my throat, it will continue to be a strawman argument. Not once have I clamored for anything "right now." I will be happy to see the same amount of time pass before I can pilot a certain ship or fit a certain mod. I simply am not amenable to the mechanism CCP has built.


I don't think you're reading all your replies, you should take a look at my one about Learning Skills.

You are stuck on the classic fallacy that EVE is about SP and big boats.

I am going to quote another, older, thread. It was about the Phoenix being useless, but there is one particular reply you should look at.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=145242
Kuehnelt wrote:

No, it's usable, but you need to throw off the shackles of convention and see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses.

Example: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13234969 (right-click open in new window)

And some kills to show what that fit can do: http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=375809&m=4&y=2012


This guy basically was killing Cyno kestrels with a deadspace fit Phoenix and eventually got hot dropped, please examine the killboards (I assume you've played EVE long enough to read a killboard).

In other words, we have someone who pimped a dread, decided to solo with it, and got owned. He got his awesome ship, he had his awesome mods, and he had the SP to fly it -- but he still lost because he didn't know enough about the game to know that becoming known as the guy who solos Cyno Kestrels in his dread is a bad idea.

If you, as you propose, could just plop into a dread whenever you grind your way to "Dread Level" or whatever, we'd be seeing a lot more losses like this.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#128 - 2014-04-10 23:25:03 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So I have to ask. Your stuff...can I have it?
Ha! That is awesome. You are a true opportunist. I will defer making a decision on this, however, until I have a chance to discuss with my my boy how badly he wants to keep playing. If he wants to stick around, I will do so for him. Otherwise you can have my stuff.

Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
Rewards for that time spent in EVE waiting on that skill to finish are self serving IMHO. Yes EVE does take time for some things. There is a ton you can do with low skilled pilots also, you just have to find what you like and get with a like minded group. Solo EVE is not conducive to fun.

Good points. I agree. And, aside from the other things I said in the OP, since I'm a solo player, EVE has nothing substantial to offer me.


It is a FREAKING MMO, what did you expect.

Want to play alone, pick a single player game.

You wont be missed...Huh? Who was it agaun that left.

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#129 - 2014-04-10 23:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Dude, I just looked at your killboard. Some tips:

-No matter how much SP you have, bombers will never win against a dramiel or an incursus.
-It is extremely unlikely for a bomber to be able to take down an omen navy issue, regardless of SP.
-ECM is crap on non-bonused hulls.
-A survey scanner has no place on a PvP ship.

You don't know how to pick an engagement, and your ship fitting could really use some work. Yeah, eve isn't the problem here, you are.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#130 - 2014-04-10 23:30:10 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.


Seeing how you behave when you don't get your way on every little thing? I'd say it's a net gain for the playerbase.

What you call "A major flaw", I call "one of the major reasons I play this game". The skillpoint system is specifically designed to NOT put mindless grinding as being the primary factor between players. If that's a problem for you, then beat it, and go to an MMO where running the rat wheel is encouraged.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#131 - 2014-04-10 23:31:02 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:

I don't think you're reading all your replies, you should take a look at my one about Learning Skills.

You are stuck on the classic fallacy that EVE is about SP and big boats.
Where have I once mentioned a big boat? Your assumption is neither correct nor justified by the contents of my posts. So who is stuck seeing what?

masternerdguy wrote:
I am going to quote another, older, thread. It was about the Phoenix being useless, but there is one particular reply you should look at.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=145242
Kuehnelt wrote:

No, it's usable, but you need to throw off the shackles of convention and see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses.

Example: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13234969 (right-click open in new window)

And some kills to show what that fit can do: http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=375809&m=4&y=2012


This guy basically was killing Cyno kestrels with a deadspace fit Phoenix and eventually got hot dropped, please examine the killboards (I assume you've played EVE long enough to read a killboard).

In other words, we have someone who pimped a dread, decided to solo with it, and got owned. He got his awesome ship, he had his awesome mods, and he had the SP to fly it -- but he still lost because he didn't know enough about the game to know that becoming known as the guy who solos Cyno Kestrels in his dread is a bad idea.

If you, as you propose, could just plop into a dread whenever you grind your way to "Dread Level" or whatever, we'd be seeing a lot more losses like this.

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#132 - 2014-04-10 23:32:12 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
No, they do not.
Yes they do. It may not be your intention, but it is indeed how it comes across in many ways.

Quote:
They scream—if they scream at all—"Make my in-game time worth something!"
It is worth something. You're just not valuing what you get out of it because you're stuck on this notion that value only comes in the form of character progression. It's as if you're throwing away tens of thousands of quarters on the basis that they're worthless.

Quote:
I simply am not amenable to the mechanism CCP has built.
That's a pity because it's by far the best mechanism I've seen in an MMO to date. It allows for advancement without detracting from actual gameplay. It almost completely renders “catching up” inapplicable as a concept due to how easy—even inevitable—it is, and at same time due to how unnecessary it is to do so. It makes an immensely wide variety of options available to new players, while still leaving something for older players to pursue. It lets new and old play side by side without unduly detract from the contributions of either.

Quote:
I'm sorry. I just don't find waiting for skills to train to be much of a journey. And if "the journey" is busying myself with things I'd rather not do while my skills train—all the "other stuff" EVE offers while you wait—yeah, this just isn't the game for me. I have no problem with that.
No, the journey is doing all the things you'll be doing once you get those skills and ships you're dreaming about, because what you'll be doing then is no different than what you'll be doing now. Training the skills is not the journey; using the skills you have is, and it won't change just because you get more SP and different ships.

The journey is also about picking up game experience and figuring out what works and what doesn't. Waiting for skills to complete is the exact opposite of that, and does in fact only hurt your progress.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#133 - 2014-04-10 23:34:32 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

Dude, you didn't loose that manticore to the omen navy issue because of SP.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#134 - 2014-04-10 23:34:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.


Seeing how you behave when you don't get your way on every little thing? I'd say it's a net gain for the playerbase.
How I behave? Wow. You know, considering the number of insults that have been sent my way by the mature, veteran player base here, I thought that I'd done pretty well behaving myself. Perhaps if I threw more insults my behavior would be more acceptable?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What you call "A major flaw", I call "one of the major reasons I play this game". The skillpoint system is specifically designed to NOT put mindless grinding as being the primary factor between players. If that's a problem for you, then beat it, and go to an MMO where running the rat wheel is encouraged.
CCP wants not just your complimentary view, but my critical view. And if you like the way it works, you are free to express that.

But don't delude yourself. All games include grinding. EVE is no different. If you have found a way to minimize the grinding, more power to you.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-04-10 23:35:53 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So I have to ask. Your stuff...can I have it?
Ha! That is awesome. You are a true opportunist. I will defer making a decision on this, however, until I have a chance to discuss with my my boy how badly he wants to keep playing. If he wants to stick around, I will do so for him. Otherwise you can have my stuff.

Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
Rewards for that time spent in EVE waiting on that skill to finish are self serving IMHO. Yes EVE does take time for some things. There is a ton you can do with low skilled pilots also, you just have to find what you like and get with a like minded group. Solo EVE is not conducive to fun.

Good points. I agree. And, aside from the other things I said in the OP, since I'm a solo player, EVE has nothing substantial to offer me.


It is a FREAKING MMO, what did you expect.

Want to play alone, pick a single player game.

You wont be missed...Huh? Who was it agaun that left.

No, I won't be missed. And since being popular is not why I play a MOG, that doesn't concern me. This whole thread was to point out what I see as a major flaw in the game. And one that will lose CCP a customer (and others that I might have brought along with me). If CCP doesn't care about that, then I see no reason for them to encourage feedback. But since they do ask for it, I offered mine.


Clearly you are not suited for EVE, doesnt mean the game is wrong.

You also do know that CCP doesnt want to be the ext WoW clone, the gametylee you obviously like.

You do also know that in a long forgotten past you did gained SP foe in game actions and this was exploited to hell and back that CCP did remove them.

If you shot a gun a lot, you gained extra SP for it.
If your tank tanked an certain amount of damage, you gainwd extra SP.

Now, let me team up with a friend (after all itls an Multiplayer game).
Let us field a ship that has enough tank to survive each others DPS and leech on each other and gain shitloads of SP....NOT broken at all.


P.s. EVE is what you make of it. Its a sandbox not a themepark. If you think that you have to wait 'x' time or SP before you can do something. You lack the imagination, I bet it you were the kid who had to be guided how to bukld their sandcastle by others everytime.

You can do what ever you want, from the start. Adapt to the situation as they arrive (in this case having lower SP then you hoped you had).

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#136 - 2014-04-10 23:36:50 UTC
Does anyone know why these people keep making the pilgrimage to try and change our game to be the same as every other freaking game out there?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2014-04-10 23:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Karak Kashada wrote:
I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

No, what requires your imagination to appreciate is the fact that he doesn't have to have ship A and mods B, and probably not even skills C to do what he wants to do. They're just something he'll get to eventually while doing what he enjoys doing. If he doesn't enjoy it, getting A, B, and C will not suddenly make it enjoyable.

You're so focused on the tools that you forget the point of having them to begin with.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#138 - 2014-04-10 23:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Karak Kashada wrote:
CCP wants not just your complimentary view, but my critical view.


No, they don't. They don't care when some WoW baby comes in to tell them that the fundamental way their game works is wrong.

That's just your hubris, trying to inflate your importance to greater than the speck that it is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-04-10 23:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: masternerdguy
Karak Kashada wrote:

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?


Here's another quote for you.

Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens
--Jimi Hendrix

Lets keep with the Phoenix example. Yes, stepping into that ship and fitting the mods does take a certain amount of time that can only somewhat be reduced by remapping and implants. However...

If I were to step into a Phoenix, I would fly it better because as a veteran player I understand the game mechanics behind it, have an idea when to and when not to use it, and I'd have better support skills for it anyway since I've played with and mastered other ships.

I would also have the wisdom not solo PVP with it, and to fit a siege module so I do more DPS than a cruiser.

However, if you were to plan a skill tree for a Phoenix with a cookie cutter fit, log in only to train skills until it was done, and then come back to fly your PLEXed Phoenix (because you didn't earn any in-game money only training skills), you are going to be annihilated.

For example, you might not know that a Phoenix can't jump through a stargate so you'd warp to a gate, get tackled, and get an embarrassing loss mail when you get killed by 3 neuting battleships.

Part of the skill training in EVE is to give you time to learn so that this doesn't happen.

Also, your posts imply you want "big boats" because you are clearly not satisfied with playing with frigs and destroyers until your skills improve. Otherwise this thread would not exist.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#140 - 2014-04-10 23:39:12 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:

I appreciate the added perspective. But I fail to see how this could help me "see farther and clearer than the unimaginative masses" where the utility of EVE's current skills-training mechanism is concerned. It's all pretty cut-and-dry. If a player wants to fly A ship and fit B mods, he will train C skills, which will take D time. And this requires my imagination to appreciate?

Dude, you didn't loose that manticore to the omen navy issue because of SP.

I recently lost two Manticores. And no, I would not attribute their loss to SP. I lost them because I was willing to risk them to gain experience, which I did. I have more Manticores yet to be lost.

Was there a point in you making this thread personal?