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EVE: the Game you Wait to Play

First post
Author
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#21 - 2014-04-10 19:29:57 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
No, you can't buy ISK with real money.

You can buy PLEX or GTCs with real money.
If nobody buys them from you,
then you don't get a single ISK.
Though my point was a simplification, in that it did not include various conditions under which it would be made 100% accurate, the point is valid.
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-04-10 19:31:08 UTC
I blame the parents. Kids today don't have to work to earn anything. They just ask for it and they get it. Insufferable, self-entitled brats, all of them.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#23 - 2014-04-10 19:33:28 UTC
Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
So I have to ask. Your stuff...can I have it?
Ha! That is awesome. You are a true opportunist. I will defer making a decision on this, however, until I have a chance to discuss with my my boy how badly he wants to keep playing. If he wants to stick around, I will do so for him. Otherwise you can have my stuff.

Natassia Krasnoo wrote:
Rewards for that time spent in EVE waiting on that skill to finish are self serving IMHO. Yes EVE does take time for some things. There is a ton you can do with low skilled pilots also, you just have to find what you like and get with a like minded group. Solo EVE is not conducive to fun.

Good points. I agree. And, aside from the other things I said in the OP, since I'm a solo player, EVE has nothing substantial to offer me.
Fransone
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-04-10 19:33:30 UTC
Karak Kashada wrote:
Fransone wrote:
I have been playing for just over a month now, so not as long as you have. However I am not disillusioned at all, because I knew from day one that it has a 'Wait to Play' aspect to it. And that is perfectly fine.

One of the things that stopped me playing other MMO's like WoW is that there is almost no reward for being a 'veteran'. In games like WoW the only things you can work towards is pure vanity items like mounts, titles or achievements.

Compared to this game where I am ALWAYS improving in some way, and I am ALWAYS progressing towards some goal. Yes, this does take some time to achieve ingame goals, but I much prefer that than having everything handed to me.

Thanks for a direct, on-topic reply. Your post validates my conclusion that EVE's model is "hurry up and wait." And it makes clear that those who don't mind this dynamic will, or may, find satisfaction in EVE. That is fine.

What I find curious, if not backward, in your is that EVE's system, in my opinion, is the epitome of having things "handed to you." For, when it comes to acquiring a better ship or a better weapon, etc., there is nothing you can do to bring about that result. You don't earn those things. You don't merit them. EVE gives them to you for nothing. You don't have to play to get them. You just have to wait. And, of course, find something else to do while you wait. That, to me, is incredibly boring.

Thanks for the post.


Ultimately everyone plays the game they want to be playing. For us that means different things, and that is completely fine. I dont see how EVE's system is handing me stuff. When I have the SP to fly a Tengu it doesnt mean I can. I also have the acquire the ISK to do so. And once I do have the Tengu and I explode, then I need to work to get another one.

But as I said, everyone plays for different reasons, and if EVE's way of doing things isnt to your liking then find something or some game that you do enjoy :)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#25 - 2014-04-10 19:35:01 UTC
So what about all the things you can do with a low skill set that I alluded to?

Doing your skills is as much a game as the main game itself if you want something fancy, but theres dozens of things that can be done with low or even no skills.

Theres no problm in EvE that there isnt a solution to

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#26 - 2014-04-10 19:37:15 UTC
I have to ask, what exactly it is that you want to do that recquires so much SP?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#27 - 2014-04-10 19:38:09 UTC
Posting my usual skillpoint spiel.

- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower level skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills.

- (*this is the important one*) Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.
Ex1: You are a newbie facing someone with about 20 million SP... but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills.
Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.

- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4 (which takes ~20% of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about 80 to 90% of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5.

- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster).

- Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another.
Ex: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor power every 24 seconds... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor from the battleship every 3 seconds... etc. etc.

- High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. It simply gives a player a linear edge at an exponentially higher cost.
Ex: A group of two or three T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 thousand to 1 million ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 to 100 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing.


tl;dr...
- Having more skillpoints is not the "end all, be all" point of the game and there is more to most activities than just "open window, click, press F1- F9." There are a plethora of factors that can decide success or failure and many of them are purely abstract in nature (see: planning, meta-gaming, friends, short-term allies, making deals, psychological warfare, etc).
Plus... you may not be able to pilot that sexy Interceptor right away... but that doesn't mean you can't slap together a super fast ship that does something similar.

- once you have your "universal" core and support skills near or at maximum (which takes about 2 or 3 months of focused training) the gap between you and an older player begins to narrow quite significantly.

- part of the idea behind the current SP system is that you can't "powergrind" to success. You MUST learn how to utilize what you have first... which requires you to use your head and be creative. This helps you later on when you can finally use "better" ships/equipment... because you have hopefully familiarized yourself with the underlying mechanics that most Tech 1 ships/equipment utilize.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#28 - 2014-04-10 19:38:40 UTC
In a sense isk is xp in eve as it is required for advancment. If you buy plex it will indeed ruin your first few months the same way buying a level 80 (no idea what the level cap is now) paladin with all bis gear will ruin your game in WoW. If you progress normally you should always be working to earn isk towards that next ship while your skills improve until you can both finance and fly your desired goal.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#29 - 2014-04-10 19:39:13 UTC
Herzyr wrote:
Well there's a saying, EvE is not for everyone, there's a reason they call it a ''mature'' MMORPG these days Lol

It's not like you have to ''wait'' for skills every time you want to fly a ship, you train those skils and that's it, you will not lose them.
Most skills work quite well at IV, and everyone does well with skills at IV, V is for specializations only and that's why they take so long.

I know new players are lured by the prospect of piloting huge ships but you will soon find that the joy of EvE tends to be from sub-capital ships, it sounds like you tried to start from the top but it doesn't work that way, you start from bottom to the way up, with the harsh death penalties of EvE, dying in a huge ship is gonna set you back ALOT which is why EvE teaches you to take it slowly.

For now, EvE seems like the final stop in my crave of MMORPGS, tell me what game offers the same or more than EvE? I rage quitted EvE in my beginning days because I didn't get it but the nagging feeling at the back of my head made me come back and I haven't left yet :)

I'm glad that you find some satisfaction in EVE. The OP, of course, was not making the point that such was impossible. I'll just offer, in reply, that the nuances you've described were very clear within the first two weeks of playing. My OP was written with due consideration of such things.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#30 - 2014-04-10 19:40:25 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
Just log in to train skills for the first year or so


Right. Wait a year to play. That was my point. Just not for me. Might not be for others, either. Hence, the thread.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-04-10 19:42:28 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
No, you can't buy ISK with real money.

You can buy PLEX or GTCs with real money.
If nobody buys them from you,
then you don't get a single ISK.

could you show one way to NOT sell your PLEX should you have one and want to sell in Jita? Did buy orders disappear somehow? Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-04-10 19:42:29 UTC
Could you tell us exactly what it is you are unable to do that you feel you should be able to do from day 1?
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#33 - 2014-04-10 19:42:38 UTC
Mag's wrote:
What was it that would have taken more than 200 days to train?
The number was a hip shot. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The point is that training for a ship is the beginning of training for that ship, not the end. There are numerous skills that bear on the utility of a ship. That amounts to significantly more training time than the face-value time noted in the "Requirements" tab. That was the point.
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#34 - 2014-04-10 19:44:27 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
LOL, read the title and thought it was a thread about having long waits to group up in null alliance fleets, left disappointed.

Sorry that you wasted your time. As an EVE player, however, I'd think you'd be used it. Blink
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-04-10 19:44:47 UTC
to the OP: could you describe what ship and fitting you wanted to play which needs you to wait for a year?

Some kind of Titan? Shocked

And why is it so important to have THIS ship fitted by THESE modules? Actually i don't know ships you can't replace by other and fits you can't change from T2 to meta or faction/deadspace/officer...

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#36 - 2014-04-10 19:45:20 UTC
Dalloway Jones wrote:
I take it this is another one of those "I want to fly a Titan on Day 1" posts.

Good guess, but not correct. At any rate, the ship one wants to fly is immaterial to the point(s) in the OP.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#37 - 2014-04-10 19:45:36 UTC
Dalloway Jones wrote:
Could you tell us exactly what it is you are unable to do that you feel you should be able to do from day 1?


Well lets see, it cant be;

Missioning
Mining
Ratting
Exploration
Corporate Espionage
Piracy (inc Gankery)
Scouting
Cyno-alting
Logi
Marketeering
Manufacturing
or
Scamming

so it must be.....

Jumpship Piloting?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#38 - 2014-04-10 19:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Karak Kashada wrote:
Space Juden wrote:
Just log in to train skills for the first year or so


Right. Wait a year to play. That was my point. Just not for me. Might not be for others, either. Hence, the thread.

In my first month in eve I took up ninja salvaging and trading. In my second month of eve I joined a C5 wh alliance just after the release of apocrypha. Had a good time there for 6 months. On my seventh month of eve I joined an npc 0.0 corp to learn the ropes of pvp.

Does that sound like "wait to play"?
Karak Kashada
Silver Talon
#39 - 2014-04-10 19:48:18 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Karak Kashada wrote:
My time is simply worth more than what EVE offers in exchange.

Ignoring the errors in the rest of your wall of text, there's a huge discrepanct here

If you (incorrectly) assume the only thing holding you back is SP, then that takes absolutely none of your own personal time to remedy. Just setup your skill queue, log off, and go play cod or candycrush or whatever your little instant gratificarion heart desires.

There is no discrepancy in the words you quoted, nor have you correctly summarized how I value my game time.

Thanks for posting.

That's my point though. Updating your skill queue takes no time at all. You can take ten seconds to update your queue once a week and do literally *anything* else in RL or in any other game. If anything, eve caters to those players whose time has value as you don't have to spend 200 hours of mind numbing grind just to level your character.

Your point is valid. It takes no game time to train skills. I suppose I could queue up the skills over several months, and then start "playing." That doesn't appeal to me, however. The journey is, in my opinion, part of the game.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#40 - 2014-04-10 19:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Karak Kashada wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What was it that would have taken more than 200 days to train?
The number was a hip shot. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The point is that training for a ship is the beginning of training for that ship, not the end. There are numerous skills that bear on the utility of a ship. That amounts to significantly more training time than the face-value time noted in the "Requirements" tab. That was the point.
If you want to be taken seriously, then I would have expected some facts behind that number instead of a hip shot. Also, it does matter.

Certain skills are used in each and every ship type. This means that once you have them, they will always be there to help. But if you expect to be able to fly a BS with all level 5's after a couple of months, then it's not the game that's at fault.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.