These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Taxes in 0.0 going to reduce refining advantage

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-04-05 00:12:00 UTC
Dr Grant wrote:


I don't have anything against members financing organizations either. But it shouldn't be automatic and rather be based on visible benefits.



So, renting > refinery tax?
Dr Grant
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-04-05 00:15:35 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Dr Grant wrote:


I don't have anything against members financing organizations either. But it shouldn't be automatic and rather be based on visible benefits.



So, renting > refinery tax?


It is the same. It is a tax on usage. In both cases you have no true idea what happens with that ISK. And at the same time the usage is pretty much monopolized (now with industry too) to make sure you must pay the tax.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-04-05 00:26:47 UTC
I know exactly what happens to the isk.

I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more.
Dr Grant
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-04-05 00:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Grant
Gilbaron wrote:
I know exactly what happens to the isk.

I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more.


That is totally awesome for you. However it just means you belong to the people who get their bills payed and not to the majority who pay the bills in 0.0. And if the dude recruited fresh from highsec would realize he pays your PLEX via his ratting drake he would probably not be too happy. Which reinforces my point about organizations not being transparent.

Edit: i would appreciate though if we can get it back to the industry topic.

My proposal: Make NPC Stations in 0.0 60 %.
Remove Tax from refining in 0.0.

The industry players could pass along the benefits via cheap prices.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-04-05 00:48:26 UTC
Switching is easy. You either pay someone to attend ctas and/or do logistics, or you do it yourself. Here is a secret for you: nobody gives a damn about what you do when things are quiet. If you want to mine, go and mine. Nulli even has a dedicated indu Corp .


The whole pass along the benefits thing is complete bullshit. The nullsec markets don't have the steady demand serious industrialists need.

Dr Grant
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-04-05 00:59:10 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Switching is easy. You either pay someone to attend ctas and/or do logistics, or you do it yourself. Here is a secret for you: nobody gives a damn about what you do when things are quiet. If you want to mine, go and mine. Nulli even has a dedicated indu Corp .


If i wanted this thread to be about Nulli i would have titled it "how Nulli operates in Nullsec". Here is a secret for you: i didn't. Therefore most of the stuff you post here is pretty much off-topic. The thread is about whether it is a good idea to give null sec alliances another passive income stream, not whether or not you hug your miners off duty. It is my opinion that it is NOT a good idea to give that passive income stream to nullsec alliances. I think however it is a good idea to buff nullsec industry. Both should not be co-dependant.

Quote:

The whole pass along the benefits thing is complete bullshit. The nullsec markets don't have the steady demand serious industrialists need.


Sure. I guess that is why you mentioned the legion of freighters and scouts before. Because there is really nothing you need from highsec...

Newsflash: It is my impression that this nullsec buff is INTENDED to make nullsec more attractive and not the wasteland you people made it. I am just thinking it is going to fail miserably because it will end up being just another instrument of alliances filling their pockets.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-04-05 02:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Quote:
Sure. I guess that is why you mentioned the legion of freighters and scouts before. Because there is really nothing you need from highsec..


We buy pretty much everything from Highsec since it makes no sense to produce locally. For a whole lot of reasons. Even with massive changes we will continue to do so. The demand is very limited and very unstable. Those are horrible conditions for industrialists.

Quote:
not the wasteland you people made it.


Game designers made nullsec a wasteland.
Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#28 - 2014-04-05 16:15:43 UTC
I suggest the OP go join a nullsec alliance so that he can get a more accurate impression of how it operates. Everything Gilabron has said so far is accurate. Particularly in highlighting that 'passing along the benefits' is not a useful thing, in null's present state.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-04-05 17:10:01 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
I know exactly what happens to the isk.

I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more.


PL's income is 100% transparent. Every year it is publicly posted. This is not anything out of the ordinary Dr Grant. All large alliances pay incentives to their most dedicated people. After the big war against the Russians, 13 or 14 months ago, our main FCs were paid in AT ships, r64 moons, free leadership characters, and/or PLEX.

All topes are provided by the alliance.

These are expected perks to being in a serious 0.0 alliance. Being a main FC or logistics dude for any decent size alliance is almost a second job and can be not only exhausting, but also make you not want to play the game anymore.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2014-04-07 15:45:54 UTC
obviously taxes will be set so that the alliance gets a cut and the reprocessor still gets more there than in empire or a pos refinery

any tax of 5% or less leads to cheaper minerals even after tax

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-04-07 15:49:06 UTC
also Gilbaron is 100% correct: it is now the norm that alliances explain what they're doing with their money, and everyone can pretty easily see when large sums of money are vanishing down a black hole because we've all gotten pretty good at figuring out what an alliance spends money on and working out when there's a big difference in what goes in vs what comes out

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-04-07 18:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Dr Grant wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Thur Barbek wrote:
afkboss wrote:
Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax.


^^^^^^^^

if your getting refine tax - time to change corps/alliances or talk to leadership.



Very, very few outpost owners tax mining at all, because the amount of mining that happens in null isn't generally high enough to make it a strong income stream. This becomes especially true once you consider the logistics of actually realizing money from those taxes - you basically have to have a large producer willing to buy whatever you get to supplement his imports. I sell the taxes (5% rate fwiw) to one of our supercap producers who uses a Titan to bridge around 3-4 freighters as a solution to the logistics problem, for example.

This may well continue to be true even after summer, too, but it'd depend on how much local industry pops up to take advantage of the cost difference. Outside that, only thing that'd change it as a rule would be having the option to take refine taxes as ore (so it could be compressed for ease of export) or simply straight isk based on estimated value of output.

Whether that's a relief or not probably depends on what your viewpoint is, but thinking that taxes would be a reason to leave is amusingly quaint. As was pointed out, neither the space itself nor the defense of it is free...


The point being:

a.) if taxes become the norm, the 0.0 advantage is either nonexistent or low for the individual player
b.) if industry will see an upturn in 0.0 i am fairly certain it will be taxed, today's settings are not a benchmark
c.) refine taxes will become a passive income stream for orgs just as rent, moon goo and rat tax. I consider that bad, because most organizations are not forthcoming about org wide income vs. expenses. I think most orgs are organized in a way that the leaderships gets a hefty profit from the operation. In any case if the empowerment of the individual is the goal, which CCP has stated, it is contra productive.
d.) 3-7 % tax on a serious industry venture is not negligible. I think CCP should think hard about giving orgs more tools to extract money from members in a passive way.


Edit: one could argue that orgs disliked indy players because there was no reasonably way to extract money from them until now. CCP has fixed that for them.

Edit: Also since 0.0 will become the most competitive refining space, CCP gives the nullsec entities control over the New Eden industry. It is not a given, that any 0.0 player even in an alliance may get the same conditions as a few selected few. That is bad for competition IMHO.

Edit: i can easily see the current nullsec cartels create a monopoly on 60 % refine stations. Should be much easier then some other ventures they did so far.


a) With a 20% advantage over highsec there's plenty of room to apply a tax and still reward the producer.
b) Probably true. Funny that this is bottom up income that so many rabble for and yet when it comes true, they start whining because it hits them.
c) Man I dunno what experience you have with nullsec organizations, but the sum total WE pay out to directors, logistics people, FCs, etc barely even comes to 5% of our budget, usually totaling a plex or two per person as long as requirements are met. Its not even a reward or salary so much as it is recognition that the work they do for the alliance requires them to operate one or more additional accounts that they may not otherwise have to subscribe. This "the leaders benefit" crap may be how things used to work, but curiously those organizations have all died out at the hands of ones that don't work that way.
d) A 3-7% tax when you're paying 20% less than competitors in empire still leaves a very sizable advantage, one that's often larger than the actual profit margin that exists now.


And finally if Nullsec comes to dominate industry and all the highsec producers are driven out of business (legitimately driven out, not petulantly whining and quitting) then I'll eat my ****ing hat.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-04-08 00:26:13 UTC
I personally have always thought that bottom up income is dumb. The alliance should have high value income streams. This generates things to fight over.

Further, 0.0 alliances SHOULD get better everything than high sec. With greater risk should come greater reward.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-04-08 03:48:44 UTC
Dr Grant wrote:
The point was made that all producers and miners will rush to 0.0 because there is this ~10% advantage. I think in most cases it won't be there for the individual.


Null is not about individuals. It's about a thinly veiled neo-feudal hierarchy, which is to say you have your answer about a great many issues where Null is concerned.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#35 - 2014-04-10 10:02:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Perkin Warbeck
mynnna wrote:
Lot of accurate stuff


Would be interested on your thoughts about the impact of the refining changes on producers of capitals in low sec. All I can see is a genuine reduction in their margins when the risks are as great, if not greater, than in null.

Quite a few low sec producers I know are concerned about the prospective impact.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-04-10 10:44:32 UTC
nullsec capital factorys will become a thing. the thing lowsec cap builders need to be concerned about it how many of these will -actually- become a thing. that is really hard to predict. you need to invest a LOT to make the nullsec factorys happen and it isn't clear yet if those investments will be made by the landlords or the renters themselves. so far, no landlord has made a definite statement about it.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#37 - 2014-04-13 09:40:29 UTC
In my rather limited nul experience, demand for goods is the biggest speed-bump you will find slowing down your industrial machine. The turnover of goods (demand) is usually tightly controlled by corp/alliance logistics that typically import a majority of necessary goods; new doctrine is advertised alliance-wide; profit. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, you have access to all the best ore/ice in nulsec. Yes, you may have to pay hefty fees to utilize research, production, refining, etc in nul stations, but supporting the landlord/station owner makes sense. Since you typically have almost no wait times for all slots (except for maybe material research), it is much better compared to a 60-day wait in highsec. So do all your research in lowsec or nul, then production in highsec and sell where you can, unless you can manage to figure out a nul niche market for profit.

As long as you have a pvp character/alt only focused on pvp skills, you will be a viable member of a nul alliance. Otherwise, stay in highsec and quit your complaining.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-04-13 17:01:34 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
In my rather limited nul experience, demand for goods is the biggest speed-bump you will find slowing down your industrial machine. The turnover of goods (demand) is usually tightly controlled by corp/alliance logistics that typically import a majority of necessary goods; new doctrine is advertised alliance-wide; profit. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, you have access to all the best ore/ice in nulsec. Yes, you may have to pay hefty fees to utilize research, production, refining, etc in nul stations, but supporting the landlord/station owner makes sense. Since you typically have almost no wait times for all slots (except for maybe material research), it is much better compared to a 60-day wait in highsec. So do all your research in lowsec or nul, then production in highsec and sell where you can, unless you can manage to figure out a nul niche market for profit.

As long as you have a pvp character/alt only focused on pvp skills, you will be a viable member of a nul alliance. Otherwise, stay in highsec and quit your complaining.



Why would you ever want to use a Null station for anything other than refining. Use a POS. If your alliance has sovereignty and you use faction tower, then there is literally no reason not to. The fuel block cost will be significantly less than the fees you would pay at a null station. You have to import everything anyway, so you might as well build where you research and refine. On the point made earlier about low sec cap building, the margins are incredibly thin anyway, so I expect to see carrier and dread production largely moved to POSes so that you don't have to: Buy in Jita --> JF to 0.0 refine station --> JF back to low sec. With the amount of topes burned (looking at a ton of mids as well and that is some MAJOR EFFORT), you might as well just build at a POS (not to mention the 0.75 time multiplier on an X-Large Ship Assembly Array and the Component Assembly Array).
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#39 - 2014-04-13 21:31:37 UTC
Moving capital production to a POS in low would remove whatever profit there was in the business. Having been a resident in low for a fair while I'm just can't see the reasoning why CCP wouldn't make refining on a low sec station equivalent to that in null. I get the whole player owned thing but they also wanted to encourage industry in both sectors. Now the one area that low sec where industry in low sec is used for has been nerfed hard.
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
#40 - 2014-04-13 23:14:44 UTC
There isn't enough practical slots for serious cap production in null. But you will likely want to throw up a small post for refining for your lowsec cap production.

Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net
Previous page123Next page