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Collateral damage
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#21 - 2014-04-06 00:01:48 UTC
i had gotten the impression that size was a multiplier for damage

read the thread again, didnt read anywhere where it says shuttles do 1 damage...then there are noob ships that are free. and blowing even frigs up without any concord response would be silly.

if warping ontop of eachother was changed, it would not suddenly make this idea practical.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-04-06 01:18:24 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i had gotten the impression that size was a multiplier for damage

read the thread again, didnt read anywhere where it says shuttles do 1 damage...then there are noob ships that are free. and blowing even frigs up without any concord response would be silly.

if warping ontop of eachother was changed, it would not suddenly make this idea practical.

structured fleet formations would however.
Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-04-06 04:18:06 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
cool. but show me the math where shuttle does one damage despite being target painted. and 1000 shuttles are cheaper than one fit catalyst

also explain to me why doing 500 damage to a ship is ok without CONCORDOKKEN repercussions. especially when i can bump a freighter and keep undocking 500 noob ships and warping on top of the freighter, and keep popping noob frigs until its dead, with no CONCORD response.

and then watch this to see how tiny a group 500 ppl is

why hammer the point home? cause ur way wrong. Way way wrong.

If you read Cekle Skyscales's post, the math is already done (and target painting does not affect structure HP). Also, by the time you blow up those 500 shuttles and get another 500 out, that freighters shields would have replenished the damage, making it impractical. It would take about 140000 Shuttles blowing up at once to take down a Freighter with this mechanic. That is a cost of about 2.1B Isk. 20 catalysts are cheaper.

Although the idea has other flaws and this point is mute.


My math assumes pure damage, that resistances of any kind were not applied. Given that it is a ship exploding, I would assume explosive damage would be the type applied. Note that explosive damage is heavily absorbed by shields inherently.
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-04-06 06:12:52 UTC
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
cool. but show me the math where shuttle does one damage despite being target painted. and 1000 shuttles are cheaper than one fit catalyst

also explain to me why doing 500 damage to a ship is ok without CONCORDOKKEN repercussions. especially when i can bump a freighter and keep undocking 500 noob ships and warping on top of the freighter, and keep popping noob frigs until its dead, with no CONCORD response.

and then watch this to see how tiny a group 500 ppl is

why hammer the point home? cause ur way wrong. Way way wrong.

If you read Cekle Skyscales's post, the math is already done (and target painting does not affect structure HP). Also, by the time you blow up those 500 shuttles and get another 500 out, that freighters shields would have replenished the damage, making it impractical. It would take about 140000 Shuttles blowing up at once to take down a Freighter with this mechanic. That is a cost of about 2.1B Isk. 20 catalysts are cheaper.

Although the idea has other flaws and this point is mute.


My math assumes pure damage, that resistances of any kind were not applied. Given that it is a ship exploding, I would assume explosive damage would be the type applied. Note that explosive damage is heavily absorbed by shields inherently.

Plot Twist: Collateral damage is already an in game feature, but (as this is more then 2000 years in the future, and technology is beyond what we consider practical) shields negate it completely even drained so you just do not ever notice.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2014-04-06 13:04:32 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i had gotten the impression that size was a multiplier for damage

read the thread again, didnt read anywhere where it says shuttles do 1 damage...then there are noob ships that are free. and blowing even frigs up without any concord response would be silly.

if warping ontop of eachother was changed, it would not suddenly make this idea practical.

structured fleet formations would however.


so if we got structured fleets u'd be ok with players putting shuttles onto station undocks to blow up other ships?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-04-07 00:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloak n'all
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i had gotten the impression that size was a multiplier for damage

read the thread again, didnt read anywhere where it says shuttles do 1 damage...then there are noob ships that are free. and blowing even frigs up without any concord response would be silly.

if warping ontop of eachother was changed, it would not suddenly make this idea practical.

structured fleet formations would however.


so if we got structured fleets u'd be ok with players putting shuttles onto station undocks to blow up other ships?

Have you even been reading what we are saying? Please stop trolling. If it works as it is described here, that will be a non-issue.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2014-04-07 01:12:04 UTC
damaging ships in hisec without concord response is a non-issue?

please stop trolling

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lilliana Stelles
#28 - 2014-04-07 01:33:41 UTC
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's why this is a bad idea.


No it's not. It adds to the immersion.

Your billions of isk will soon disappear if you dedicate yourself to blowing up your own orcas in the hopes of getting something of value from surrounding ships.

I said collateral damage, not collateral destruction. Blowing up an orca next to my Industrial may lower the shields and some armor but not destroy my ship...while you just lost an orca.

But a battleship in a dogfight may be vulnerable if it's shields and armor are already compromised.


Get a freighter.
Insure it.
Put a killright on it with your alt, let someone buy the killright for the remaining value that isn't covered by insurance.

Result: free freighter explosion on the jita undock. Many small ships die.

Not a forum alt. 
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-04-07 03:34:25 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's why this is a bad idea.


No it's not. It adds to the immersion.

Your billions of isk will soon disappear if you dedicate yourself to blowing up your own orcas in the hopes of getting something of value from surrounding ships.

I said collateral damage, not collateral destruction. Blowing up an orca next to my Industrial may lower the shields and some armor but not destroy my ship...while you just lost an orca.

But a battleship in a dogfight may be vulnerable if it's shields and armor are already compromised.


Get a freighter.
Insure it.
Put a killright on it with your alt, let someone buy the killright for the remaining value that isn't covered by insurance.

Result: free freighter explosion on the jita undock. Many small ships die.

Now that is a lagit point. Thank you for adding to the conversation. As I said from the start though: This is not a good idea, as there are lots of flaws, I am just playing devils advocate here. An immunity to targets that are not leagle maybe? I do not beleave ccp would do that ether however. A "smart bomb" effect that only works in low sec? But then we are back to non realism.

Off topic: why does CCP Spell check say "leagle" and "beleave" are spelled wrong? I checked the spelling on both.
Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-04-09 17:35:23 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's why this is a bad idea.


No it's not. It adds to the immersion.

Your billions of isk will soon disappear if you dedicate yourself to blowing up your own orcas in the hopes of getting something of value from surrounding ships.

I said collateral damage, not collateral destruction. Blowing up an orca next to my Industrial may lower the shields and some armor but not destroy my ship...while you just lost an orca.

But a battleship in a dogfight may be vulnerable if it's shields and armor are already compromised.


Get a freighter.
Insure it.
Put a killright on it with your alt, let someone buy the killright for the remaining value that isn't covered by insurance.

Result: free freighter explosion on the jita undock. Many small ships die.

Now that is a lagit point. Thank you for adding to the conversation. As I said from the start though: This is not a good idea, as there are lots of flaws, I am just playing devils advocate here. An immunity to targets that are not leagle maybe? I do not beleave ccp would do that ether however. A "smart bomb" effect that only works in low sec? But then we are back to non realism.

Off topic: why does CCP Spell check say "leagle" and "beleave" are spelled wrong? I checked the spelling on both.


If implemented with my calculation from earlier in the thread, it would take four freighters destroyed in this way to detonate a single frigate, and that assumes it stays still long enough for you to blow up said freighters.
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-04-09 18:52:09 UTC
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's why this is a bad idea.


No it's not. It adds to the immersion.

Your billions of isk will soon disappear if you dedicate yourself to blowing up your own orcas in the hopes of getting something of value from surrounding ships.

I said collateral damage, not collateral destruction. Blowing up an orca next to my Industrial may lower the shields and some armor but not destroy my ship...while you just lost an orca.

But a battleship in a dogfight may be vulnerable if it's shields and armor are already compromised.


Get a freighter.
Insure it.
Put a killright on it with your alt, let someone buy the killright for the remaining value that isn't covered by insurance.

Result: free freighter explosion on the jita undock. Many small ships die.

Now that is a lagit point. Thank you for adding to the conversation. As I said from the start though: This is not a good idea, as there are lots of flaws, I am just playing devils advocate here. An immunity to targets that are not leagle maybe? I do not beleave ccp would do that ether however. A "smart bomb" effect that only works in low sec? But then we are back to non realism.

Off topic: why does CCP Spell check say "leagle" and "beleave" are spelled wrong? I checked the spelling on both.


If implemented with my calculation from earlier in the thread, it would take four freighters destroyed in this way to detonate a single frigate, and that assumes it stays still long enough for you to blow up said freighters.

I did not look at the math, for that, but it sounds solid. One problem though. If your a billionaire in Jita, and you buy 4 freighters and hand 3 out to your 3 alts/friends. Undock at the same time and Right click ship->self destruct all at once. It just may be cost effective if you get REALLY lucky, and someone is carrying plex or BPOs in a shuttle or frig. Then there is the fleet warp issues. Your Haul % damage solution only fixes the greifer side of the problem, but not the coordination side of it. Maybe only Super caps explode?
Cekle Skyscales
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-04-09 21:53:56 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
I did not look at the math, for that, but it sounds solid. One problem though. If your a billionaire in Jita, and you buy 4 freighters and hand 3 out to your 3 alts/friends. Undock at the same time and Right click ship->self destruct all at once. It just may be cost effective if you get REALLY lucky, and someone is carrying plex or BPOs in a shuttle or frig. Then there is the fleet warp issues. Your Haul % damage solution only fixes the greifer side of the problem, but not the coordination side of it. Maybe only Super caps explode?


Self-destruct takes 2 full minutes. If you undock and AFK in Jita and your ship blows up because of 4 freighters simultaneously self-destructing... I don't know how to help you.

People who undock are temporarily invulnerable also, so they wouldn't be blown up by surprise if they undock right as the ships self-destruct. Only those who AFK without moving would be affected.
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-04-09 22:04:33 UTC
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
I did not look at the math, for that, but it sounds solid. One problem though. If your a billionaire in Jita, and you buy 4 freighters and hand 3 out to your 3 alts/friends. Undock at the same time and Right click ship->self destruct all at once. It just may be cost effective if you get REALLY lucky, and someone is carrying plex or BPOs in a shuttle or frig. Then there is the fleet warp issues. Your Haul % damage solution only fixes the greifer side of the problem, but not the coordination side of it. Maybe only Super caps explode?


Self-destruct takes 2 full minutes. If you undock and AFK in Jita and your ship blows up because of 4 freighters simultaneously self-destructing... I don't know how to help you.

People who undock are temporarily invulnerable also, so they wouldn't be blown up by surprise if they undock right as the ships self-destruct. Only those who AFK without moving would be affected.

Good point, so now all that needs to be addressed is the fleet structure mechanics to make this so it does not kill large fleet battles.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#34 - 2014-04-09 22:12:48 UTC
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Watch people blow themselves up on the undocks of trade-hubs... or next to mining operations... or add extra damage to a target when dying to CONCORD.


NO, you cant blow yourself up. It only happens if you are destroyed by outside forces.


Why is self destruct immune to this effect?

it takes a big bang to pop a dominix from the inside.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-04-09 22:19:51 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
so whats stopping me from getting 500 shuttles, putting them on the jita undock, and then popping them with TP fit tornadoes when a freighter undocks.

if the freighter doesnt die, it takes damage and CONCORD doesnt show up because the 500 shuttles and their pilots are in my corp.

now that weakened freighter can be ganked by 5 catalysts instead of 20.


Why would you buy shuttles when you can get free Ibis?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-04-09 22:23:24 UTC
Cloak n'all wrote:
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
I did not look at the math, for that, but it sounds solid. One problem though. If your a billionaire in Jita, and you buy 4 freighters and hand 3 out to your 3 alts/friends. Undock at the same time and Right click ship->self destruct all at once. It just may be cost effective if you get REALLY lucky, and someone is carrying plex or BPOs in a shuttle or frig. Then there is the fleet warp issues. Your Haul % damage solution only fixes the greifer side of the problem, but not the coordination side of it. Maybe only Super caps explode?


Self-destruct takes 2 full minutes. If you undock and AFK in Jita and your ship blows up because of 4 freighters simultaneously self-destructing... I don't know how to help you.

People who undock are temporarily invulnerable also, so they wouldn't be blown up by surprise if they undock right as the ships self-destruct. Only those who AFK without moving would be affected.

Good point, so now all that needs to be addressed is the fleet structure mechanics to make this so it does not kill large fleet battles.


And what would prevent the other side from blobbing in your own formation to bounce it back into a tight clusterfuck?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2014-04-10 00:11:04 UTC
Doireen Kaundur wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:

That's why this is a bad idea.


No it's not. It adds to the immersion.

Your billions of isk will soon disappear if you dedicate yourself to blowing up your own orcas in the hopes of getting something of value from surrounding ships.

I said collateral damage, not collateral destruction. Blowing up an orca next to my Industrial may lower the shields and some armor but not destroy my ship...while you just lost an orca.

But a battleship in a dogfight may be vulnerable if it's shields and armor are already compromised.



So the damage is small enough to be utterly meaningless then? An industrial has a few thousand EHP, a battleship at that kind of HP is seconds from death anyway.
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-04-10 19:15:31 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
Cekle Skyscales wrote:
Cloak n'all wrote:
I did not look at the math, for that, but it sounds solid. One problem though. If your a billionaire in Jita, and you buy 4 freighters and hand 3 out to your 3 alts/friends. Undock at the same time and Right click ship->self destruct all at once. It just may be cost effective if you get REALLY lucky, and someone is carrying plex or BPOs in a shuttle or frig. Then there is the fleet warp issues. Your Haul % damage solution only fixes the greifer side of the problem, but not the coordination side of it. Maybe only Super caps explode?


Self-destruct takes 2 full minutes. If you undock and AFK in Jita and your ship blows up because of 4 freighters simultaneously self-destructing... I don't know how to help you.

People who undock are temporarily invulnerable also, so they wouldn't be blown up by surprise if they undock right as the ships self-destruct. Only those who AFK without moving would be affected.

Good point, so now all that needs to be addressed is the fleet structure mechanics to make this so it does not kill large fleet battles.


And what would prevent the other side from blobbing in your own formation to bounce it back into a tight clusterfuck?

No, but the knowledge that if they are to close to an exploding enemy ship they will take extra damage will. Unless there is an OVERWHELMING amount of them and they do not care. It that case you would most likely lose the fight with or without this mechanic.
PrettyMuch Always Right
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-04-12 04:19:28 UTC
Let's combine the ideas thus far from this thread and add one important point that was mentioned once but deemed unrealistic: limiting this to low/null/WH space.

It's the only way this can remotely work. Some people in this game are trillionaires, you know. They won't have a problem blowing up 10 freights for the lulz.
ShakeThatMoneyMaker
Uniscape
#40 - 2014-04-12 07:32:23 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
It's been suggested before and rejected before due to the potential for abuse and griefing.

One potential adaptation of this idea that could work is to apply this to capitals and supercapitals only.

^ This
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