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Awoxing mechanics
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#1 - 2014-04-09 09:54:20 UTC
don't get me wrong - I have nothing against awoxing in and of itself....
however, when you're testing a rookie out and he brings 3 friends in RR ships to keep him alive while he slowly chews through you - seems a little unbalanced.
My suggestion is thus - create a limited engagement when a corpie aggresses you - therefore his OOC logi inherits the flag and you can try to kill them at least.

For the record (and in the interest of full disclosure) I have no KM to provide, there was only one OOC logi and he got chewed up by the mission rats that an OOC combat ship didn't pop fast enough, allowing me to slowly chew through the gank-cat until he disengaged.

I could have had that osprey within about 30s, I reckon, if he'd inherited any kind of flag...

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2 - 2014-04-09 14:02:36 UTC
seeing as this only affects the RR side of awoxing, ill support it.

until then, u can try suicide blackbirding his RR and/or him.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#3 - 2014-04-09 17:04:45 UTC
Even if it would create a LE, you still wouldn't go suspect from repping a corpie vs a corpie.

My Condor costs less than that module!
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#4 - 2014-04-09 17:39:11 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
Even if it would create a LE, you still wouldn't go suspect from repping a corpie vs a corpie.


You would go suspect from repping someone in a limited engagement
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5 - 2014-04-09 17:56:12 UTC
Indeed. OP is talking about how the would-be AWOXer had out-of-corp logi repping him up.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-04-09 17:56:50 UTC
I actually can't support this idea.


Outside of all the ways this could get messy when dealing with wars, accidental aggression(Logi guy accidentally drones one of his corpies while trying to rep) mainly, but I don't assume to know how Eve can contort a change like this, there is also the factor of players being responsible for thoroughly checking out who they let into their corps, measured risks, and taking care to prepare for any eventuality. Neutral logi alts and blackbirds are and have been a thing for what? Ever?


As are insta locking frigates on gate camps with cloaked falcons. It's spineless, tasteless, cowardly, 'risk free PVP', and flat out ********, but it is also in line with the sand box 'play how you want, do what you want' mentality. Some people get their rocks off by being complete tools.... Others actually like playing the game. Either way, it is the responsibility of the pilot to prepare for any eventuality.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#7 - 2014-04-09 18:02:26 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Neutral logi alts and blackbirds are and have been a thing for what? Ever?


Prior to crimewatch, if someone was repping someone that was shooting you, you were able to shoot the reppers without concord interference.

Logi during an awox gank are protected by concord against everyone, even the person who is fighting the person they are repping.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#8 - 2014-04-09 22:15:29 UTC
what I want is to be able to shoot the guy, who's repping the guy shooting me, I don't want concord to hit him, I just want to be able to shoot him myself....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ivan Krividus
Cold Lazarus Inc
The-Expanse
#9 - 2014-04-10 00:50:01 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
I actually can't support this idea.


Outside of all the ways this could get messy when dealing with wars, accidental aggression(Logi guy accidentally drones one of his corpies while trying to rep) mainly, but I don't assume to know how Eve can contort a change like this, there is also the factor of players being responsible for thoroughly checking out who they let into their corps, measured risks, and taking care to prepare for any eventuality. Neutral logi alts and blackbirds are and have been a thing for what? Ever?


As are insta locking frigates on gate camps with cloaked falcons. It's spineless, tasteless, cowardly, 'risk free PVP', and flat out ********, but it is also in line with the sand box 'play how you want, do what you want' mentality. Some people get their rocks off by being complete tools.... Others actually like playing the game. Either way, it is the responsibility of the pilot to prepare for any eventuality.


Yes, but the RR mechanic actually STOPS the victim from fighting back and actually makes the game less free. with LE the awoxer can still RR with a neutral alt, except now the RRer can be attacked, which actually opens up more options for the no longer helpless victim while not actually impeding on the AWOXer's freedom of gameplay at all.

Either way, it is too easy to just make some NPC alt and start repping yourself. Its a bit exploitative, since the alt feels like a tool to help you get ahead in the game, instead of a feature of the sandbox. In addition, the victim cant do crap about it unless he made a throwaway alt as well, so I guess in your terms it would be the responsibility of tons of players to make random and useless alts that they have to pay $15 for just because some other guy did. I don't know...

But LE would still allow a neutral repper, it just makes using one less exploitative.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-04-10 00:56:09 UTC
Ivan Krividus wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I actually can't support this idea.


Outside of all the ways this could get messy when dealing with wars, accidental aggression(Logi guy accidentally drones one of his corpies while trying to rep) mainly, but I don't assume to know how Eve can contort a change like this, there is also the factor of players being responsible for thoroughly checking out who they let into their corps, measured risks, and taking care to prepare for any eventuality. Neutral logi alts and blackbirds are and have been a thing for what? Ever?


As are insta locking frigates on gate camps with cloaked falcons. It's spineless, tasteless, cowardly, 'risk free PVP', and flat out ********, but it is also in line with the sand box 'play how you want, do what you want' mentality. Some people get their rocks off by being complete tools.... Others actually like playing the game. Either way, it is the responsibility of the pilot to prepare for any eventuality.


Yes, but the RR mechanic actually STOPS the victim from fighting back and actually makes the game less free. with LE the awoxer can still RR with a neutral alt, except now the RRer can be attacked, which actually opens up more options for the no longer helpless victim while not actually impeding on the AWOXer's freedom of gameplay at all.

Either way, it is too easy to just make some NPC alt and start repping yourself. Its a bit exploitative, since the alt feels like a tool to help you get ahead in the game, instead of a feature of the sandbox. In addition, the victim cant do crap about it unless he made a throwaway alt as well, so I guess in your terms it would be the responsibility of tons of players to make random and useless alts that they have to pay $15 for just because some other guy did. I don't know...

But LE would still allow a neutral repper, it just makes using one less exploitative.


Welcome to modern PVP, unfortunately.

Most of the "solo" PVPers are without honor.

The modern generation thinks solo means 1 guy multiboxing a Falcon, Logi, Scout, DPS, and off grid links. It's really sad. Sometimes they even make YouTube videos about it, with their "solo" Tengu going 3km/s with an AB and landing points from 50km, or maybe their "solo" Hyperion repping the incoming DPS of a 20 man fleet.

Now, I love blobs and given the choice between running solo and running with a fleet I'll stick with the fleet any day. At least that's honest.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#11 - 2014-04-10 03:43:36 UTC
Honor, PvP and EVE ... in the same thought ... and unironically? Is this some kind of complicated joke?
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-04-10 05:05:52 UTC
I don't think what we need is the LE mechanic, since it'd make in-corp logi suspect aswell for High sec wars, if you were to shoot a friendly.

I think we need an entirely new flag which only applies to this situation.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-04-10 05:12:48 UTC
I guess I have to answer with the counter of: Why were you in a situation where this was allowed to happen? You said the mission rats drove the would be ganker off, why/how did you end up in the situation where a corpie was in your fleet, in your mission, with an out of corp alt, and you didn't know them well enough to know whether they would do this?



Go into detail what happened here, because it seems like OP made a list of mistakes before finding himself in this situation.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-04-10 11:07:43 UTC
There are only two viable solutions that I can fathom, however, both are flawed in their own right.

1) Allow CEO's an option to allow or disallow corporation friendly fire, meaning if this is checked to allow, then things will function as they do now. If this is disallowed, then it would cause Concord to intervene in High Sec, gate fire in low, and well nothing in Null. This option would of course have a 24 hour cooldown.

2) As far as neut logi's go, they should not be allowed if there is a limited engagement flag between two pilots. Not just suspect flag the neut logi. I mean this could be tweak many different ways.

I don't care for either of these but I do wish that there was a bit of honor in Awoxing to at least give the victim some glimmer of hope before he is taking the pod express. Lol

Drops Mic
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2014-04-10 11:15:02 UTC
Your problem isn't awoxing, it's living in hisec where you can't master your own existence, but depend on the absurd ROE dictated by NPC mechanics.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2014-04-10 14:56:30 UTC
well, letting AWOXer's into corp is your responsibility. i dnt think anyone here is contesting that.

but allowing the AWOXer to get out of corp reps without anyway to shoot him for the presence of CONCORD goes beyond sucking. I'd have thought it was unintended.

And if ppl shooting MTU's to draw aggro from drones was an unintended result, despite how obvious it was that the mechanic was both sandbox and dumb ass related, then how can risk free repping for AWOXers not fall under the same 'its not how its supposed to work' area.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#17 - 2014-04-10 16:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
Kenrailae wrote:
I guess I have to answer with the counter of: Why were you in a situation where this was allowed to happen? You said the mission rats drove the would be ganker off, why/how did you end up in the situation where a corpie was in your fleet, in your mission, with an out of corp alt, and you didn't know them well enough to know whether they would do this?



Go into detail what happened here, because it seems like OP made a list of mistakes before finding himself in this situation.



to answer - OP (yes, that's me) did indeed make a fair few mistakes;

  • I let a char into corp without doing a proper background/api check, references, etc
  • I then invited that new corpie into a fleet (with a prospective recruit) and told them where to be for a mission
  • I didn't compare employment history of the two
  • I did this when I was the only old corpie online within a 10 jump radius of the mission system
  • I did this without having the ability to boot corp members (I only found this out afterwards)

I imagine there's more points that I can't think of atm

needless to say, once in mission - awoxer and prospective recruit/prospective awoxer dropped fleet, in warped an osprey, and I was pointed by the time it landed on grid.....
the osprey got chewed on by the rats, I managed to damage the awoxer enough whilst tanking him well enough that he was forced to disengage, and I (obviously) warped to station and docked up
I have no issue with the guy I never let into corp trying to pop the rats so the osprey could survive, I have a BIG issue with not being able to do anything to the osprey.


it's not the awoxing I take issue with - that was my fault - and I'm lucky not to have lost a ship - it's the OOC repping of awoxers I have a problem with. (and the same goes for repping people in a duel.....)

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-04-10 17:20:43 UTC
Safe remote reppers in wars or anywhere really are ridiculous. Just yes.

Travelling at the speed of love.