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PI Taxes?

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#261 - 2011-12-01 00:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Confirming glad to see that Ingvar's "hole" got temp nerfed and that in my opinion he is whining close to that of the pirates when CONCORD got buffed.

And VERY VERY VERY glad to say to you for once.

WORKING AS INTENDED!

See you once they implement cloaking changes! Big smile


Ah, still have your panties in a wad over afk cloakers I see. Roll What cloaking changes are you imagining being made this time I wonder? Roll

OK... this is boring... taking down the first Interbus CO in the hole. Damned things are tougher than they look.

Interesting fact that may only interest me: Anchoring time for Ganrty, 5 secs. Online time, 30 secs.

Then I'll be setting the tax rate to 0%, cursing Nulllabor to many daily poddings for thinking of and implementing such a poor system.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jita Alt666
#262 - 2011-12-01 00:38:48 UTC
Enjoy your abundant supply of highly valuable pi materials.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#263 - 2011-12-01 00:44:07 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Enjoy your abundant supply of highly valuable pi materials.


I will. After the initial screwing of isk we're receiving this whole update is pretty much useless in wormholes afterall. It's the poor bastards in high sec that used to do PI in lowsec that are getting screwed the most... and the lowsec faux-pirates that tried to feed on them.

We have to waste about a billion or so isk to change the COs over in the hole to these worthless PCOs. That just ain't right. Recoverable, but still wrong. The empire folks... they lose access to PI altogether unless they want to settle for high sec.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Pah Cova
Made in Portugal S.A.
#264 - 2011-12-01 01:20:47 UTC
Well.

No fun no €uros.

High sec planets have nothing, low sec planets either.

High sec is NPC like low sec (as faction sovereignity), so the all planets must be NPC.
When we want to put a pos on low sec, we´ve got to have standings with that faction, isnt it?

I will disassemble my pos´s, i will refuse to pay those values.

One of my accounts expire today and i will not pay it again.

When CCP transfer the T2 for null sec as they are planning, i want to see the number of players decreasing.

Keep on good working cuting your income instead raising it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#265 - 2011-12-01 01:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Pah Cova wrote:
Well.

No fun no €uros.

High sec planets have nothing, low sec planets either.

High sec is NPC like low sec (as faction sovereignity), so the all planets must be NPC.
When we want to put a pos on low sec, we´ve got to have standings with that faction, isnt it?

I will disassemble my pos´s, i will refuse to pay those values.

One of my accounts expire today and i will not pay it again.

When CCP transfer the T2 for null sec as they are planning, i want to see the number of players decreasing.

Keep on good working cuting your income instead raising it.




Big smile

(Sometimes a reply just isn't necessary.)

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sobach
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2011-12-01 01:30:37 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.


I don't know.... assuming that the final price of PI products are pushed up higher due to the taxes in hisec, POCO owners in w-space would actually enjoy improved profit margin - at least those who do extractions anyway.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#267 - 2011-12-01 01:49:23 UTC
As a matter of importance, is their any facility to transfer ownership of orbital stations implemented?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
MR DEMOS
DKL Fringe Division
3 Jackals
#268 - 2011-12-01 01:53:28 UTC
I have a few thoughts about this Big smile If anyone was around before PI was introduced they know how much of an In-cline Pos fule went threw from Being manufactured by the NPC's to where we were before the patch yesterday. Example: robotics around 3k per unit if i remember correctly. Before the patch they were at 70k rhoughly :)) This is a Cycle, and those Who read the Dev Blogs and did the math and crunched the numbers And INVESTED WISELY "KUDOS" to the other 99% of eve who failed to do this :))) Well I'll be making ISK off your Mistake :))) and if i could i would have invested alot more to bend as many of you over the table as possible Twisted
It pays to be An Indy Guy somedays and a marketeer others But when your both :))) EPIC LOL's


WANTED: EVIL GENIUS seeks Minions to sacfice Their lives in world domination attempt. Must be prepared to work 24-7 for Facscist Pyscopath for no pay. Messy Death Inevitable. But Costumes and Lazer death rays Provided. No Wierdo's Call 1-800-MUH-HAHA
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#269 - 2011-12-01 07:22:31 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
As a matter of importance, is their any facility to transfer ownership of orbital stations implemented?



Yes, i just checked.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Menrith Hadel
Boop Brigade
#270 - 2011-12-01 07:23:26 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

You're right and you're wrong... in wormholes the tax change right now has a huge effect, costs are through the roof on exports/imports, but once the contraptions are up the tax rate will be set to zero so we'll basically see no gain whatsoever. When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.

PI product prices are going to rise significantly, due to the large amount of PI that will still be done in high-sec. You will be able to sell at that significantly higher price. Once you plop down some POCOs, you will be selling at a much higher price while paying no (or very little) extra tax (you'll be in the same position as everyone in lowsec/0.0 who is able to defend their POCOs, except you have the added defensive benefit of being in a wormhole). This patch will increase your profit margins by a potentially large factor and you're complaining because you'll have to drop a few hundred million on some structures that nobody will bother destroying due to the reinforcement timer.
Jan'tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#271 - 2011-12-01 08:18:56 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
It would have been much harder to give up, say, a named colony with thousand of residents that I had spend months cultivating by running aggressive recruitment campaigns among neighboring colonies and millions of ISK in infrastructure and facilities to keep spies and sabotages to a minimum.


I do a lot of PI, a whole goddamned lot of PI, but I wouldn't do whatever this is.

holla if your tax rates are 1% :toot: sup highsec
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#272 - 2011-12-01 08:22:29 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

What about synth boosters manufactured in lowsec? Won't they be cheap easy to distribute now? Why don't you come to our home system and make them :)

Thanks for the offer, Jade, but as we can see from the discussion here, people expect a raise in price on POS fuel commodities meaning I am better off just selling the fuel I produce in your zero tax system than trying to do synth booster production. It is one thing to activities for little gain and another to put effort into something and lose ISK in the end.

Any way, there is no point in discussions at this point; POCOs bears all the marks of a feature that is going to flop. So let us take a look at it in a couple of months and see where it went.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#273 - 2011-12-01 19:19:48 UTC
As long as it's profitable, people will do PI.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#274 - 2011-12-02 00:25:41 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
As long as it's profitable, people will do PI.


Ultimately, it all comes down to that, yes.

So... having launched this threadnaught, my final conclusions amount to...

1: Highsec PI is screwed. People who were really heavily invested in doing PI in hisec with alts might unsub those alts, or possibly try their luck in lowsec. The fanatics will remain, working on much thinner margins.
2: Lowsec PI is up in the air, while people try to figure out just how feasible it is to put up and defend PoCos there. I'd hope for interesting arrangements, like pirates setting up PoCos and collecting protection money from PI-ers in exchange for free passage, but that kind of thing is more a factor of the gangs working the areas then anything else, and will vary heavily between regions.
3: Nullsec PI is going to be really profitable, but fraught with risk, as people try to bait in defence forces by reinforcing PoCos. Expect more fighting; which will neatly segue into the post-expansion wars.
4: Wormhole PI is going to remain slightly less profitable then Null, given the logistical costs of hauling stuff out. A wormhole corp shouldn't need to worry as much about people attacking their PoCos, so it's a safer investment there then in Null.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#275 - 2011-12-02 00:48:13 UTC
Endovior wrote:

1: Highsec PI is screwed. People who were really heavily invested in doing PI in hisec with alts might unsub those alts, or possibly try their luck in lowsec. The fanatics will remain, working on much thinner margins.


Why?

PI harvest planets are still exporting goods to market, they're either charging 50 ISK more per unit today, or they're simply making a bit less on goods that are worth 250-900 ISK/u. All those hi-sec PI harvest planets are still producing 800-1200k ISK/day for their owners.

PI factory planets will need to pay attention now to the tariffs and include it in their profit calculations. Even with the currently screwed up prices as the market shakes out, the following products are still profitable to make if you buy the prior tier, import it, and sell the results:

P2: Biocells, Coolant, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Microfiber Shielding, Nanites, Test Cultures, Transmitter, Viral Agent

P3: Biotech Research Reports, Cryoprotectant Solution, Hazmat Detection Systems, Hermetic Membranes, Industrial Explosives, Neocoms, Robotics, Smartfab Units, Vaccines

P4: all are profitable to make from the P3s

Smart producers will attempt to figure out whether it's better to do P2->P3 or P1->P3 (on a single planet), with a similar calculation for those who want to make P4s. Do you buy P3s and make it? Or do you setup a slightly more complex setup that takes P2 as an input to make the P4?
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#276 - 2011-12-02 01:48:37 UTC
*Shrugs*

I envision that competition from untaxed PI will drive Hisec producers, if not out of business, then at least to a fairly marginal level of profitability. Faced with such diminished income, I would imagine that the majority of Hisec PI operators will find a more profitable use of their time.
leavwiz
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
#277 - 2011-12-02 04:41:04 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
I laughed out loudly! This is MADNESS, CCP. With this PI supernerf, alot of POSs will be abandoned in no time. I am sorry but noone is willing to pay these amounts. What did you guys think?

PI has become endgame for the rich people out there.


already dismantled my POS, no point in trying to make things or do research cheaply for others while absorbing ever expanding mat costs. The absurd PI tax makes my small, solo player planets a waste of time.
I could stay and run the same tired missions that have been offered in high sec for years without any hope of new challenges.
or i could waste my time flying into gank fests at low sec gates.

The idea that somehow hi sec small players will still continue to enjoy big profits from production or PI is laughable and the constant suicide kills of high sec miners has made it abundantly clear that CCP wants us out of high sec or out of the game.

I have billions in isk (yes, all earned risk free). so i have no problem buying bpo's to make things for friends. I play for free with plex. My pleasure in playing was being able to help outfit people and just enjoy the relaxation of mining, research, production, and run the occasional high sec mission.

The PI tax was just another straw in the back breaking string of idiocy that started with incursions (only large fleets need apply)
, then incarna (oh boy i can see a moving figure of my avatar in a room) , and now crucible (pay higher prices to move stuff around in friendly space so that everything will be so expensive that you are forced to move to or deal with low sec players).

I did a goodbye thread elsewhere in the forums and got flamed for my opinion. so be it. The harsh truth is, people are leaving and the recent updates arent attracting new players to feed the grist mill. So maybe I am not alone in thinking CCP has made a mistake here.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#278 - 2011-12-02 04:48:30 UTC
HS has low risk, therefore should have low (relative) profit from PI.


CCP is just fixing a mistake of having the PI tax rate set at original PI prices, instead of current ones. No different than when they set insurance to be based on mineral value.
Jita Alt666
#279 - 2011-12-02 06:54:02 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
HS has low risk, therefore should have low (relative) profit from PI.


CCP is just fixing a mistake of having the PI tax rate set at original PI prices, instead of current ones. No different than when they set insurance to be based on mineral value.


QFT (and to bump thread so more whines can be generated)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2011-12-02 08:32:44 UTC
leavwiz wrote:
already dismantled my POS, no point in trying to make things or do research cheaply for others while absorbing ever expanding mat costs.

Then don't absorb the mat costs? Do the logical thing and pass the costs on? This isn't rocket science.

leavwiz wrote:
I could stay and run the same tired missions that have been offered in high sec for years without any hope of new challenges.
or i could waste my time flying into gank fests at low sec gates.

Or you could train up for transporters and be 95% safe. I had no issues with running 1-5 trips (or more) back and forth to/from solitude along its lowsec path every day for 3-4 months.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat