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Level 4 NPCs: Golem versus CNR

Author
stoicfaux
#1 - 2014-04-09 03:04:02 UTC
Once upon a time, while flying my CNR, this happened :
* 4200 to Gistum Centurion - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4200 to Gistum Centurion - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4200 to Gistum Centurion - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4200 to Gistum Phalanx - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4200 to Gistum Phalanx - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4123 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 79 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4000 to Gistum Marauder - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4000 to Gistum Marauder - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4054 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 149 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 4186 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* 121 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits

I was one-shotting Angel cruisers (the Centurion, Phalax, Marauder) with Fury missiles until I ran into the Gistum Liquidator which took ~1.02 volleys to kill, i.e. two full volleys of Fury. At which point my OCD and my Pride started bit slapping each other and things got ugly.

Needless to say this annoyed me greatly, and I began a quest to see what it would take to one shot all non-elite NPC cruisers. My fevered research revealed that the "Seven Bodyguard" was one of the hardest Level 4NPCs to one shot. Using that NPC as my baseline, I determined that you needed a CNR with three CN BCUs, one T2 BCU, three RF TPs, two Rigor II rigs, one Flare II rig, 5% dmg implant, 5% rof implant, 3% explosion radius implant, and a 3% explosion velocity implant kill that damnable cruiser. Price was 1.27B isk as per EFT, plus another ~310M in implants or 1.58B isk.

I really couldn't get excited about paying ~240 million isk for a trio of T2 rigs for such a minimal performance improvement.

Which brought me to a secondary quest, namely, could I match the CNR's one shot ability and do it cheaper in a Golem? The answer is yes and no/yes. A Golem with three CN BCUs, one T2 BCU, two Rigor Is, four PWNAGE TPs, 5% damage implant, and 5% rof implant could match the effectiveness of the CNR. EFT price is 1.42M plus ~270M in implants for 1.69B isk.

The Golem costs ~110M more isk. But in theory, that can be made up with income from loot/salvage.

tl;dr - If you want to "max" a CNR or Golem for level 4s i.e. be able one shot all non-elite cruisers with Fury missiles, then the following fits are what you want to fly.

Also, here are the numbers comparing the two against most NPCs. Due to patience and googledocs limits, the spreadsheet is text/numbers only (no formulas): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdDQteEJ6OWd4NGpUQVFTZ3YtM2JLQ2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0 (nearly 2600 NPCs compared)


[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Type-D Attenuation Signal Augmentation

Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Implants:
CM-605
RL-1005
GP-803
TN-903

[Golem, Level 4 Cruise]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Implants:
CM-605
RL-1005


TTFN!

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#2 - 2014-04-09 05:59:43 UTC
Do we need LMJD on golem? Painters optimal is around 40km.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#3 - 2014-04-09 06:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
A sane pilot leaves the railguns on the nearly dead target for the coup de grace, and moves the sentries on.

That also works for the other classes with a big discrete hitpoint pool problem like BCs. Likewise railguns are for frigates at long range, and railguns are for destroyers at long range, so I don't waste a sentry salvo on them.

You could split your launchers into 2 groups. I probably would.
Byerly Plodalong
#4 - 2014-04-09 07:48:37 UTC
I have a gd experience with golem bcoz i use 2 of them in misions.

I sugest to use 2xinvul t2 or 3 for omni tank.
Drop mjd you realy dont need that.
Also use 2x target painters.

And yea i kill nonelite cruisers,batllecruisers,frigate with 1shoot.

And use also T2shield booster and t2 Shield booster amplifier.
Bcoz with the bastion you realy dont need expensive shield booster.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#5 - 2014-04-09 10:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
while i like the general idea of increasing the valiability on rage missles i dont rly see any point in wasting expensive missles to do so - we already 1 shot those with t1 ( cheap ) missles
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#6 - 2014-04-09 10:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Vinyl 41 wrote:
while i like the general idea of increasing the valiability on rage missles i dont rly see any point in wasting expensive missles to do so - we already 1 shot those with t1 ( cheap ) missles


The idea is to create a setup that can use fury missiles against everything without needing more volleys on the smaller targets, what saves a lot of time compared to switching missiles during a wave.

As for my opinion, probably a mixed weapon system like the fleet phoon is much better in a pure fury missile configuration, because it can finish off smaller targets with other weapons or even allows you to stick on big targets with the missiles completely, while doing the smaller ones with drones and guns, compared to stacking painters to a amount where you will archive guaranteed 1 shoot kills with the CNR or Golem.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#7 - 2014-04-09 10:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
The Djego wrote:
Vinyl 41 wrote:
while i like the general idea of increasing the valiability on rage missles i dont rly see any point in wasting expensive missles to do so - we already 1 shot those with t1 ( cheap ) missles


The idea is to create a setup that can use fury missiles against everything without needing more volleys on the smaller targets, what saves a lot of time compared to switching missiles during a wave.

you will still need to switch for frigs so im not sure if a i can follow you on this idea - right now my golem 1 shots pretty much every stuff smaller then bs elite cruisers and elite frigs ( its a 50/50 chance here )
anyways with the mjd there is barelly any need to switch missle types since you can just outrun either bs or small stuff

edit 1
i would go with normal phoon 1 less sentry but 1 very usefull aplication bonus ( less painters more omnis )
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-04-09 11:04:08 UTC
fuck target painters.

I should buy an Ishtar.

stoicfaux
#9 - 2014-04-09 11:47:12 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
fuck target painters.

That reminds me: F&I request to group target painters


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#10 - 2014-04-09 11:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Vinyl 41 wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Vinyl 41 wrote:
while i like the general idea of increasing the valiability on rage missles i dont rly see any point in wasting expensive missles to do so - we already 1 shot those with t1 ( cheap ) missles


The idea is to create a setup that can use fury missiles against everything without needing more volleys on the smaller targets, what saves a lot of time compared to switching missiles during a wave.

you will still need to switch for frigs so im not sure if a i can follow you on this idea - right now my golem 1 shots pretty much every stuff smaller then bs elite cruisers and elite frigs ( its a 50/50 chance here )
anyways with the mjd there is barelly any need to switch missle types since you can just outrun either bs or small stuff

edit 1
i would go with normal phoon 1 less sentry but 1 very usefull aplication bonus ( less painters more omnis )



Well the idea is to push max dps all the time with fury missile and not to shoot frigs with CMs at all, since this would be a massive wast of dps(and therefore time and ISK). While most people use light drones on the raven hulls for it, the fleet phoon can dispatch frigs with 2 auto cannons, 5 sentry's, 2 Omnis and 2 painters(1 volley normal frigs and 2-3 volley elite frigs), what speeds up most stuff a lot.

I vastly prefer the fleet phoon since with a armor tank, mwd, 2 painters, 2 omnis, damage application isn't a big deal for it anyway.

Grouping target painters would be nice, I currently just use macro keys on my mouse to key bind them together. Bear

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#11 - 2014-04-09 11:58:05 UTC
This is slightly off topic, but what source did you use for your NPC ship statistics?
stoicfaux
#12 - 2014-04-09 11:59:07 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:

you will still need to switch for frigs so im not sure if a i can follow you on this idea - right now my golem 1 shots pretty much every stuff smaller then bs elite cruisers and elite frigs ( its a 50/50 chance here )

Why switch for frigs? That's 10 seconds to switch and another 10 seconds to switch back to Fury. Either let your light drones kill the elite frigates, or take the ~30 seconds to kill them with Fury. (Or ideally, ignore elite frigs completely.)

Also, the goal is to do better than "50/50" chance. Grr, OCD!


Quote:
anyways with the mjd there is barelly any need to switch missle types since you can just outrun either bs or small stuff

The MJD is there to either get you closer (reduce TP falloff,) to blitz, or for the Golem to GTFO if you overdo the triggers in a couple of DPS heavy missions.

Side note: at 110km, max skill TPs have a 70% chance of hitting.


Quote:
edit 1
i would go with normal phoon 1 less sentry but 1 very usefull aplication bonus ( less painters more omnis )

Except that in order to maximize Fury DPS (i.e. your primary DPS,) a CNR, which has a better bonus than the Typhoon, needs three Faction TPs and T2 rigs. Which is troubling to fit on a Typhoon.

Plus I prefer a missile speed bonus to help volley counting, which can be a significant DPS loss.

In general, yes, you could carry a couple of sentries on a CNR to kill those wounded NPCs, but unbonused sentries tend to have tracking issues and range issues in the case of Gardes. Plus, i would prefer to keep the salvage drones out.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

stoicfaux
#13 - 2014-04-09 12:01:35 UTC
Dani Skye wrote:
This is slightly off topic, but what source did you use for your NPC ship statistics?

Very old database dump, when CCP still included mission and NPC statistics. I've spot checked my logs and the numbers/formulas are correct, so it doesn't appear that CCP has changed NPC stats in many, many years. (Aside from the NPC ECM changes.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Dani Skye
Pro Synergy
#14 - 2014-04-09 12:04:39 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Dani Skye wrote:
This is slightly off topic, but what source did you use for your NPC ship statistics?

Very old database dump, when CCP still included mission and NPC statistics. I've spot checked my logs and the numbers/formulas are correct, so it doesn't appear that CCP has changed NPC stats in many, many years. (Aside from the NPC ECM changes.)



Alright, thank you both for answer and doing god's work in general. :)
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#15 - 2014-04-10 13:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Nice post.

What are the minimum reqs for a typhoon / tfi to do this with just their missile systems? / can they?
voetius
Grundrisse
#16 - 2014-04-10 16:30:33 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Nice post.

What are the minimum reqs for a typhoon / tfi to do this with just their missile systems? / can they?


There are some figures in here : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=335429&find=unread

though not as detailed as the OP. Nice work on the figures Stoic.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#17 - 2014-04-10 16:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
chaosgrimm wrote:
Nice post.

What are the minimum reqs for a typhoon / tfi to do this with just their missile systems? / can they?


I think it doesn't really matter that much, at least in my opinion, on the phoon and TFI, since you can dispatch anything with the other weapon systems when a CM salvo wasn't sufficient enough to bring it down, but in painter optimal I get nearly all BCs and Cruisers with 1 volley down, elite cruisers with 2 if you utilize the other weapons on the them as well. Overall you could probably go with 4 painters on the TFI to archive the same(I do prefer mwd + 2 painters + 2 omni tracking links, simply because the extra tracking and range is super handy for frig shooting).

Here is a small example of how a pure fury CM setup looks on the TFI:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1404/TFI_vs_Blockade%28Angels%29.wmv (warning horrible volley management on my part, haven't flown it in a while and just thrown it together real quick Oops )

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

stoicfaux
#18 - 2014-04-10 20:03:41 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Nice post.

What are the minimum reqs for a typhoon / tfi to do this with just their missile systems? / can they?

Typhoon cannot one shot because of the lower volley damage (i.e. it only has 6 launchers due to the RoF bonus.)

The TFI can one-shot the Seven Bodyguard with Fury missiles but it will cost you: 4xCN BCUs, 5x Domination TPS (@ ~100M isk each,) 2xT2 Rigor and a T2 Flare rigs, 6% dmg implant, 5% explosion radius implant, and 5% explosion velocity implant (the 6% implant can be any one of the three.) End result: Fractional Volleys to Kill of 0.998550


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

stoicfaux
#19 - 2014-04-10 20:10:48 UTC
I went with the Golem. Muuuuuuuuuuch better:
* :21:33 ] (combat) 4200 to Gistum Liquidator - Nova Fury Cruise Missile - Hits
* :21:39 ] (notify) Nova Fury Cruise Missile deactivates as the item it was targeted at is no longer present.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Omega Sunset
Black.Omega
#20 - 2014-04-11 01:45:01 UTC
As overkill CNR is for lvl4 already..
stoicfaux wrote:

[Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1]

Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

..there's your problem.
even a web or two would do better imo, fur them pesky elite frigs anyway, make faster work with drones.
If speed matters, train T3 and speed run where applicable.

—Ω—

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