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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#1481 - 2014-04-03 20:42:28 UTC
@ Stouman

A bonus to smartbomb could be really OP if u consider that some ppl are allready multiboxing anomalies with smartbombing bs.
Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#1482 - 2014-04-03 22:15:58 UTC
Just showed up, heard about shiny ship changes.

I heart my Cruor right now. It can be overgeared to be an unstoppable machine but let's talk tech 2 for a moment.

You're hitting its grid pretty hard -- that's going to make plate/mwd difficult. If its main role is going to be to catch kiting frigs it needs to be able to close range fast enough to throw a point down. Next the difference between the two bonuses is so drastic I don't see how they synergize well at all. Right now if you throw a faction web on a Cruor you can catch dumb pilots who get way too close and get an 18km web on em @ 90% velocity reduction. Very soon after you can throw neuts on them which incapacitates them completely.

I suggest you make the following bonuses this:

17.5% bonus to web range (10 x 87.5 = 18.75km)
25% bonus to energy emission systems range and transfer amount (7 x 125 = 15.75km)

First off, even if the ship had a 14km web you'd only be reaching out to about 28km with the old 20% bonus, anyway. This makes the ship more viable by giving it an ability to put pressure on the target's cap while it closes distance.

Second, If you're gonna hit the ship in the grid it needs to be able to get out after it's tackled its target. It doesn't have a damage bonus so it needs to work in unison with other ships or it'll find itself toast real fast.

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King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1483 - 2014-04-06 00:51:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/


I can already tell you that the rifter is a better ship than your proposed cruor in every possible scenario. No test is required to prove this. It's beyond question really. I wouldn't consider the rifter the best t1 frigate either. Honestly the cruor needs a buff. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one successfully. Your proposed changes to it are on a whole, a significant nerf to an already bad ship.

Web range is completely worthless to it. You might as well not give it a bonus at all if that's your proposed bonus. No one is going to fly this thing if they have any sense. A few supporters of the change here will but when they get destroyed by a 3 day old toon in a punisher, they'll promptly change their minds.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Tarra Nobilii
Doomheim
#1484 - 2014-04-06 02:36:21 UTC
I would just like to say I would like to see racial roles be more like;

Sansha: laser tracking, [shield boost bonus], laser damage

Blood: Web range, Neut effectiveness, laser damage

Gurista; ECM, shield resist (passive shield tank), drones

angel: speed mod effectiveness, projectile tracking (rather than damage) ,mass reduction (light ships)

serpentis: web effectiveness, hybrid damage, hybrid tracking


I think the proposed changes for sansha, speed mod bonus, is misplaced and a role that exists in eve is passed up (shield bonus). At present, minmatar are really the only shield boost bonus users...but I think it is a nice role for sanshas to have some sort of pvp purpose in this game. It can also create some nice fits for pve (which sansha already excels at); perhaps a bridge to marauders...as they are skill intensive. Speed stuff seems more appropriate for angel ships, that are already speed oriented.
Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1485 - 2014-04-06 14:31:46 UTC
I am assuming the devblog in question, was the one about the drone changes, cause of the Guristas shipline?

So can we expect the postings for the pirate cruisers and battleships to go up and live soon?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1486 - 2014-04-06 22:21:25 UTC
Tarra Nobilii wrote:
I would just like to say I would like to see racial roles be more like;

Sansha: laser tracking, [shield boost bonus], laser damage

Blood: Web range, Neut effectiveness, laser damage

Gurista; ECM, shield resist (passive shield tank), drones

angel: speed mod effectiveness, projectile tracking (rather than damage) ,mass reduction (light ships)

serpentis: web effectiveness, hybrid damage, hybrid tracking


I think the proposed changes for sansha, speed mod bonus, is misplaced and a role that exists in eve is passed up (shield bonus). At present, minmatar are really the only shield boost bonus users...but I think it is a nice role for sanshas to have some sort of pvp purpose in this game. It can also create some nice fits for pve (which sansha already excels at); perhaps a bridge to marauders...as they are skill intensive. Speed stuff seems more appropriate for angel ships, that are already speed oriented.

I really hope that all these suggestions throughout the thread are heeded. There have been so many complaints about the Cruor and web range bonus, and also the Sansha getting an AB bonus.

Could we get a version 2 just as you did with the industrial ships, and then you can put two versions to the forum and make a better judgement regarding which one to implement. These pirate changes are going to be massively important for the game, affecting countless people who operate in npc null, and the people who utilise their ships. If you are wanting to encourage people into null sec then it will be crucial to get these right. It will be well worth spending some extra time and giving people the pirate ships they really want.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1487 - 2014-04-07 17:55:22 UTC
Hope=Lost

With the cruiser thread up it's quite obvious Rise is clueless about what ships are strong in the pirate line at the moment. Let's buff Serpentis more and nerf Blood Raiders. #soundlogic
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1488 - 2014-04-07 18:23:13 UTC
So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).

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Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1489 - 2014-04-07 22:10:12 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).


Literally came to the thread to say that.


I feel like it might have been something that was missed, but the previous 5m3 drone bay per level should really have been added into the hull natively to give it 50m3 overall.


At the very least the bay should be a multiple of 10, so that complete flights of drones can be held (but don't take it down to 20).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1490 - 2014-04-07 22:17:10 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).


Literally came to the thread to say that.


I feel like it might have been something that was missed, but the previous 5m3 drone bay per level should really have been added into the hull natively to give it 50m3 overall.


At the very least the bay should be a multiple of 10, so that complete flights of drones can be held (but don't take it down to 20).
Old worm only had room for one spare flight as well, which has always been lower than the gila which currently can hold 3 large/sentry flights. This makes sense on a hull that can use more than one size of drone. Not sure it's necessary or even justifiable that a ship with only one size to use should have the same bay to bandwidth ratio.
Naomi Anthar
#1491 - 2014-04-07 23:24:43 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
So can we get the Worm's drone bay increased? The Gila numbers that came out today has it at 20/100. Any chance the Worm could get at least 10/40 if not 10/50? It'd allow for more drone diversity (or at the very least, a flight of each of the newly rebalanced light racial drones).


No No No No ... and say it as owner of over 60 worms. I though that it is typo on gila.
Lets be real you get huge hp bonus on those drones now. You are literally asking for INFINITE supply of drones on ship(which is absolutely not intended and it was always major trait of drones - being destructible). It's going to be hard to kill those 5 small drones with 300% hp bonus when they chew you along with buffed missile bonus. Hell noone should go for drones after this change - but instead focus worm - that will be tanky at same time. And with 8 as 40 bay would suggest we are talking about 32 worth of ehp in drones you need to take down ... unacceptable.

Worm is already top2 if not strongest new pirate frig. Just stop this madness. No need for more stupid buffs.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1492 - 2014-04-08 07:05:20 UTC
30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.

As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.

You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are.
Naomi Anthar
#1493 - 2014-04-08 09:13:22 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.

As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.

You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are.


If that would be issue - noone would fly tristan with only 1 full flight of drones. Worm actually got 2,5.
But you know what tristan is probably most op basic t1 frig in this game.

A reasonable approach would be to remove 5 bay. And again i gotta hella lot of worms (can provide screenshoot) ... but ship is already out of control. So for sake of any balance it cannot get buffed further.

And you are so sure that people will not like it after buying this ship ?

Speaking of split weapon systems i can name succesful ships easily :
1. Tristan - for same reason worm can work - hell even much better.
2. Algos , dragoon - yes even with TRI weapon system - launchers + guns + drones - tanky as hell , ganky as hell.
3. Vexor - one of strongest if not strongest t1 base cruiser. Working very well with split weapon system.

those are just examples you can get easily more - especially gallente ships.

Tell me one reason why worm may fail - if tristan already is king and it can often come on top in fights vs some assault frigs/faction frigs. Then how tristan on steroids aka worm won't be powerful ship ?
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1494 - 2014-04-08 17:21:47 UTC
Good day rise, I've been following your pirate cruiser thread closely and the fast responses in that thread tell me you couldn't really care less about the frigates. I would however like to quote something you mentioned in that thread for the people here who have been claiming opposite.

CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


I still await a response as to the types of changes you made to the Cruor you felt made it too strong when you reconsidered the web bonus. I'm fairly certain almost everyone here can agree that nothing but the web bonus needs to be changed, we aren't asking for more damage, nor are we asking for more tank, or speed (those things were requested as compensation for the loss of this bonus).

While having different bonuses across the Blood Raiders hull line is probably not ideal for you balance guys, because you want things to be all neat, tidy and the same, you said it yourself in the OP that the ships at each hull size fulfill very different roles, and frankly they should be treated appropriately to compensate for this difference.

I must also continue to insist that you have misplaced the web range bonus, it definitely belongs on the Serpentis who happen to have that nice falloff bonus, and are faster ships overall.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1495 - 2014-04-08 18:35:35 UTC
Is the Dramiel getting a warp speed bonus to 7.5 AU/s?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Naomi Anthar
#1496 - 2014-04-08 19:40:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Is the Dramiel getting a warp speed bonus to 7.5 AU/s?


There is no reason why it shouldn't. I guess topic will get updated soon.

CCP Rise ... now that you did reduced pwg nerfs on cruiser maybe have a look on succubus / cruor fittings one more time. First one is excelent ship but is forced to use MASB without real option for extender. 2nd one is like impossible to fit now with plate. (because you still must have room for mwd , neuts/nos/lasers).

It is kinda weird that Worm almost got pwg of succubus T_T.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1497 - 2014-04-08 20:14:27 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
30m3 bay on the Worm would be reasonable. The drones might have a lot of ehp, but you tend to lose them more to warping out.

As far as being the best pirate frig, it will only be so on paper. Split weapons ships tend to look good on paper but perform poorly in actual use. It is why CCP got rid of most of the split weapons ships in the last few rounds of balancing. Like the Domi and Ishtar lost their hybrid bonuses, the Typhoon now only has a missile bonus, etc.

You'll make bank on the 60 you have because people will buy them up to see how good they are.


If that would be issue - noone would fly tristan with only 1 full flight of drones. Worm actually got 2,5.
But you know what tristan is probably most op basic t1 frig in this game.

A reasonable approach would be to remove 5 bay. And again i gotta hella lot of worms (can provide screenshoot) ... but ship is already out of control. So for sake of any balance it cannot get buffed further.

And you are so sure that people will not like it after buying this ship ?

Speaking of split weapon systems i can name succesful ships easily :
1. Tristan - for same reason worm can work - hell even much better.
2. Algos , dragoon - yes even with TRI weapon system - launchers + guns + drones - tanky as hell , ganky as hell.
3. Vexor - one of strongest if not strongest t1 base cruiser. Working very well with split weapon system.

those are just examples you can get easily more - especially gallente ships.

Tell me one reason why worm may fail - if tristan already is king and it can often come on top in fights vs some assault frigs/faction frigs. Then how tristan on steroids aka worm won't be powerful ship ?



Tristan is pretty weak. No damage bonuses, just tracking. We tried issuing them for decloaking at gate camps, but they are slow. Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.

Vexors are the only one you mention that actually works, but they use hybrids and sentries, so they can apply damage instantly.

Like I said, split weapons bonuses look good on paper, but rarely work out in actual use. Of the 4 you mentioned, only one found a niche and sells well enough to prove it. I have no doubt Worms will be popular right after the change and sell for a premium. But long term, there are plenty of other ships that can do the close in brawler role at a better price. High damage dealing isn't exactly a unique thing with ships in this game. In the long run, the high speed and tackle bonuses of the other pirate frigs will make them more popular.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1498 - 2014-04-08 20:23:25 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:



Tristan is pretty weak. No damage bonuses, just tracking. We tried issuing them for decloaking at gate camps, but they are slow. Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.



Thats intresting because out here in the minmatar/amarr warzone catalysts and thrashers are obsolete and everybody uses algos's and dragoons. also #random facts

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#1499 - 2014-04-09 01:22:19 UTC
Rise, since you state in the Pirate Faction Cruisers post that
CCP Rise wrote:

So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three


will Dramiel also get a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration?
suicide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1500 - 2014-04-09 04:08:34 UTC
IMO the Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake could use some drone velocity and tracking bonuses to really accentuate their very narrow drone specialization.

They can only use one type of drone effectively. With that narrow a specialization they better be damn good at it.