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A "Kick in the Pants" Tax System
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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#1 - 2014-04-08 04:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: DetKhord Saisio
Vilnius Zar wrote:
OP, nope there's no way of doing this within the current system (as silly as it is) apart from setting up your own system. Depending on how much the corp spends for its members (not all corps need higher tax) There's an easy way of contributing.

Set tax to 0 and have every member pay a monthly fee based on his SP, possibly with a multiplier that's agreed to based how much much the corp actually needs to spend. So a 1 mil SP newbie pays 1 mil x multiplier and a 20 mil SP one 20x multiplier, etc etc. It's probably the easiest and most "honest" way of doing it. It only works with relatively small corps ofcourse.
Due to the original thread was locked in 2013, I am trying to resurrect Vilnius Zar's idea here with slight adjustments.

At a glace, Vilnius' idea appears to be a simple and elegant solution to Eve's currently broken tax system. Even NPC corps can use it, if CCP thinks the ISK sink is needing a "kick in the pants". In fact, a motivation for players to leave NPC corps could be started if ccp decides to implement a variation of Vilnius Zar's idea: a high enough modified tax rate in NPC corps.

The tax can be paid monthly or daily; daily rate is based upon double monthly Skill Point Tax (SPT) divided by 30.

Going away from keyboard (AFK) or away from game (AFG) can be used to turn this off, but coming back from AFK requires penalties, fees, and back-taxes to get your "account in order". Knowing accountants, the fees are healthy enough of a percentage to ensure those that "leave the reservation" do so sparingly.

Now for the numbers, but feel free to play around with this on your own. Ideally, a tax system should apply to all corps so I need help adjusting this so it works for all corporations.

NPC Corp: Player Skill Point Tax (SPT) Rate... [10x Monthly] or [20x Daily]
--Player A (1 mil SP) pays 10 mil per month or 666,666.67 per day (i.e. 20 mil per month)
--Player B (20 mil SP) pays 200 mil per month or 6,666,666.67 per day (i.e. 400 mil per month)
--Player C (100 mil SP) pays 1 bil per month or 66,666,666.67 per day (i.e. 2 bil per month)

Player-owned Corp: Player Skill Point Tax (SPT) Rate... [1x Monthly] or [2x Daily]
--Player A (1 mil SP) pays 1 mil per month or 33,333.33 per day (i.e. 2 mil per month)
--Player B (20 mil SP) pays 20 mil per month or 1,333,333.33 per day (i.e. 40 mil per month)
--Player C (100 mil SP) pays 100 mil per month or 6,666,666.67 per day (i.e. 200 mil per month)

It goes without saying, extensive testing is required to make it work right. So players that decide to stay in NPC corps would still be charged all the current fees/rates/taxes/etc but at the new (higher) NPC corp tax rates. Otherwise, players that join player owned corps would be charged either low or no fees/rates/taxes/etc, except for tax rate the corporation CEO/CFO decides to charge the corp members.

The potential here is large ISK sink for players in NPC corps, new pvp opportunities for those leaving NPC corps for player corps, and potentially the reduction of neutral alts affecting the outcome of engagements; but bottom line, I think leveling the current tax system and starting over can greatly increase the potential for corporation income generation that is fair and balanced. The idea may spawn into something entirely different than what I attempted to relay above, but at least attempting to fix the broken tax system is a step in the right direction.

Please feel free to add to this, pick it apart, or say it will or will not work. But please include why you think so.

Edit:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Tax based on activity is more fair. a % based on Income. That being said I would like to see a corp tax on sales. Then the PvE/PvP guys would be taxed mostly on their bounties/mission rewards etc, and the industrialists would be taxed on what they sell. This would probably cause short term inflation until the market settles. People that cover more of the production chain would probably end up being able to under cut people that only do one segment of the chain due to paying less tax, but they have to work harder for it.

Caldari 5 wrote:
out of my 34M SP in Spaceship command I'm only using about 3M of that SP at the time.


Edit: Agreed, activity-based tax might work, whatever increases player-corps' income from taxes. How about an adjustment for OP to apply corp tax rate to the 3 mil skill points (or whatever amount used to earn income)? Did that make sense?
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#2 - 2014-04-08 04:10:33 UTC
Completely pointless, players will create their own 1 man corp and set the tax rate to 0. If they get war dec'd, they will disband the corp and create a new one over the course of about 30 seconds. Your idea increases server load but doesn't do much beyond that.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3 - 2014-04-08 04:16:01 UTC
I'm not sure I completely understand the rationale for this, but it sounds interesting and I'd like to know more.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#4 - 2014-04-08 04:30:14 UTC
Sounds to me like "Let's hit people in NPC corps with a club, until they decide to leave" with a side of "Let's give CEOs a club to hit their more skilled players with, until they decide to leave". To be fair, though, that could just be the numbers.

Personally, I'd express the opinion that if non-taxed sorts of income are posing a problem to CEOs, for whatever reason, and this problem is seen as large enough to need a game mechanics change to correct it, I'd rather see that change implemented in such a way as to make that income taxable (thus reducing income-per-hour), as opposed to being a lump-sum existence tax (which I feel would be more odious to work against).

In particular, if players are in an NPC corp, and their wallets run out of money, what happens? Negative wallet values are not on the table, for obvious reasons.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#5 - 2014-04-08 04:41:42 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Completely pointless, players will create their own 1 man corp and set the tax rate to 0. If they get war dec'd, they will disband the corp and create a new one over the course of about 30 seconds. Your idea increases server load but doesn't do much beyond that.
Actually, it is not completely pointless. As stated in OP, fixing the problem is the point here... not throwing your arms up in the air and screaming "There is nothing we can do!" which is pretty much what you did above.

Ah, so really your constructive criticism is the cost of creating a new corporation is way too low? Thank you. Let's make it exceedingly high, maybe 10x the cost of a wardec. So if a wardec costs 50 mil, your new corporation creation costs 500 mil. Have fun with that. Now, your tactic is completely pointless. Next.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#6 - 2014-04-08 04:50:11 UTC
Endovior wrote:
Sounds to me like "Let's hit people in NPC corps with a club, until they decide to leave" with a side of "Let's give CEOs a club to hit their more skilled players with, until they decide to leave". To be fair, though, that could just be the numbers.

Personally, I'd express the opinion that if non-taxed sorts of income are posing a problem to CEOs, for whatever reason, and this problem is seen as large enough to need a game mechanics change to correct it, I'd rather see that change implemented in such a way as to make that income taxable (thus reducing income-per-hour), as opposed to being a lump-sum existence tax (which I feel would be more odious to work against).

In particular, if players are in an NPC corp, and their wallets run out of money, what happens? Negative wallet values are not on the table, for obvious reasons.
Good question. What makes sense is what I would vote for. Off the top of my head, I would say once a player goes off the reservation, away from keyboard, or away from game... the taxes stop. But that actually means you are not playing, gaining skill points, etc.

As far as anyone that forgets to set their status before they log out for the last time (taking a break from game, etc) can do so from account management. Or whatever CCP would decide makes sense to them. But realistically, a balance of zero in a wallet means the corporation does not collect taxes, and the player status changes to inactive (i.e. afk/afg/off the reservation).
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-04-08 05:01:36 UTC
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#8 - 2014-04-08 05:01:52 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I'm not sure I completely understand the rationale for this, but it sounds interesting and I'd like to know more.
Basically, if you are earning income for a corporation using the current tax system, you are probably grouped into a rather large group of mission runners and killing NPC people. The current tax system does not include all other forms of income, though to be honest poco's and nul stations tend to make a tidy sum.

As stated, I am trying to find a way to even the playing field so to speak for the tax system. Basing the tax amount off your skill points (SP) seems like a fair and balanced method. Those with very little SP can make very little isk; large amounts of SP affords a player many more opportunities for making isk. No matter how you end up making a profit, everyone should contribute to the well-being of a corporation. Therefore, Vilnius Zar's idea and my adjustment to his idea came about.

If you want to add something or make adjustments, please feel free to do so.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#9 - 2014-04-08 05:03:52 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.


This, pretty much. That's the other side of why I'd generally want taxation to be tied to income.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#10 - 2014-04-08 05:12:25 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.
Talk to CCP about why this is. Question CCP does a lot of things for a lot of reasons, but potentially they wanted people to get used to making money in FW, then change it to totally screw you guys over after you are addicted. Do you not see the patterns from changes to mining/PI/etc ? If I am correct, expect CCP to swing the FW nerf-bat very Soon (TM).
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-04-08 05:30:37 UTC
Tinfoil aside, it's all about specializing.

A pilot specialized in flying an incursion Nightmare will earn more ISK than a fleet commander who spends most of his time fighting - both, quite likely, for the same SP.

It sure works in games that don't have the depth of EVE, but here you can invest a lot of SP in PvP-centric skills and not much of that will be useful in PvE.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#12 - 2014-04-08 05:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Caldari 5
Endovior wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.


This, pretty much. That's the other side of why I'd generally want taxation to be tied to income.

Agreed more SP does not equal more ISK, it kinda plateau's very early on, Pretty much as soon as you can solo L4's/decent Anoms the ISK/Hr stops going up in any meaningful amount.

And then you have casual gamers that only play 3 or 4 hours a week, vs those that play 4+ hours per day.

A monthly fee based on SP just doesn't work.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#13 - 2014-04-08 06:04:57 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:

...
In fact, a motivation for players to leave NPC corps could be started if ccp decides to implement a variation of Vilnius Zar's idea: a high enough modified tax rate in NPC corps.

...
players that decide to stay in NPC corps would still be charged all the current fees/rates/taxes/etc but at the new (higher) NPC corp tax rates.

...
I think leveling the current tax system and starting over can greatly increase the potential for corporation income generation that is fair and balanced.


If I am understanding u correctly, u want to generate more corp income via taxes. The way u want to go about doing that is by push more players into player corps by making NPC corps a less attractive place to be...

Just going to give the standard "you already have options post": if you make ur corp an attractive place to be + recruit and work to retain ur members, you'll likely make more via taxes.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#14 - 2014-04-08 06:28:35 UTC
To avoid a wardec, where to players go? Yes, they drop corp to NPC corps. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but there is nothing preventing players from doing so. I feel the mechanic is broken if players leave corp/alliance in order to avoid a wardec. Forcing their hand is not my intention here, but making them choose which is more important is.

Yes, joining a NPC corp is still an option, it just is not free. The tax for that day is immediately due upon joining that NPC corp, or you may choose to pay the monthly rate if you plan on staying 30 days. Do the math and figure out which payment method works best for you.

The point of the game is for people to interact in meaningful ways. Allowing players to freely transfer from corp to corp, abandon a corp and remake it, and any other similar tactic seem to just be passive-aggressive nonsense. I am suggesting it can still be possible to do so, but for an appropriate fee.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#15 - 2014-04-08 06:40:55 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.
I am curious as to why you think this is the case. Please give objective examples for comparison, excluding subjective information.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#16 - 2014-04-08 06:45:21 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Endovior wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
The base concept is flawed, somehow implying that SP = ISK. A low-SP FW farmer can make as much money as a vet in nullsec.


This, pretty much. That's the other side of why I'd generally want taxation to be tied to income.

Agreed more SP does not equal more ISK, it kinda plateau's very early on, Pretty much as soon as you can solo L4's/decent Anoms the ISK/Hr stops going up in any meaningful amount.

And then you have casual gamers that only play 3 or 4 hours a week, vs those that play 4+ hours per day.

A monthly fee based on SP just doesn't work.
Suggest something that works for you. Or you could use the daily fee. Go afk/inactive and stop paying. Come back to make isk when it is convenient for you. Did I not understand what you typed? If so, please explain.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#17 - 2014-04-08 07:03:11 UTC
And really, on the flip-side of this idea is the player-owned corporation that successfully recruits and retains members. Those corporations that are managed well.... they will have a significantly larger pool of money to run things with. Off the top of my head, I can imagine fully-funded programs such as new player ships, ship-replacement, insurance, skill books, etc. The list goes on forever of things people can come up for influencing players to join their corp and stay active if the funds where there to do so.

Part of what kills activity is lack of people playing in your time-zone. Thus a large corporation is forced to recruit for all time-zones. Ship replacement is huge part of most alliance financing. I am sure these can be touchy subjects; a lot of people make a lot of isk off some of these programs. So even suggesting a change to any of this can get all sorts of people steamin mad. However most players make their isk, it seems like the current tax system does not cover everybody and that is my goal.

I do not pretend to have all the answers or the correct answers. I feel like at least broaching the subject can get people thinking about the problem. I may be entirely wrong, but at least talking about the issues can help us narrow-in on where the real problem is.

I still believe there is some sort of adjustment needed for the tax system. Feel free to add your thoughts.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#18 - 2014-04-08 11:19:15 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Completely pointless, players will create their own 1 man corp and set the tax rate to 0. If they get war dec'd, they will disband the corp and create a new one over the course of about 30 seconds. Your idea increases server load but doesn't do much beyond that.
Actually, it is not completely pointless. As stated in OP, fixing the problem is the point here... not throwing your arms up in the air and screaming "There is nothing we can do!" which is pretty much what you did above.

Ah, so really your constructive criticism is the cost of creating a new corporation is way too low? Thank you. Let's make it exceedingly high, maybe 10x the cost of a wardec. So if a wardec costs 50 mil, your new corporation creation costs 500 mil. Have fun with that. Now, your tactic is completely pointless. Next.


Implying there is a problem in need of fixing. If people choose to sit in an npc corp forever, that's their business, not yours. If you have a score to settle with them as an individual player then might I suggest the fine art of the suicide gank.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#19 - 2014-04-08 13:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
So what happens when my skill points mean I'm taxed more aggressively than my income will keep up with? What happens when my wallet goes to zero? Be specific.

Additionally and as a separate second question, explain why you harbor so much hatred in your heart for the experienced players who stay in rookie corps and help fresh newbies who are confused about what's going on in EVE. Those players aren't always just avoiding wardecs, sometimes they're filling a very important role supplementing the tutorial.. or do you actually expect me to believe that you really think nobody in EVE asks questions in rookie corp chat when they're new?
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-04-08 13:58:25 UTC
Can't tell if troll...

Trii Seo wrote:
A pilot specialized in flying an incursion Nightmare will earn more ISK than a fleet commander who spends most of his time fighting - both, quite likely, for the same SP.

It sure works in games that don't have the depth of EVE, but here you can invest a lot of SP in PvP-centric skills and not much of that will be useful in PvE."


Should be an answer enough. Plus, it's not like everything is about making ISK - what if you don't want to spend your free time in EVE making ISK to pay your taxes. You just want to go out there and shoot people. Should you be punished for content generation and forced to rat? Nope.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
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